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2017 area 7 in MA???


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1 hour ago, aaron410 said:

Is there a tentative date for this match? I'd like to attend and am in the middle of planning my season and don't want to double book. 

Sept 8 - 10, 2017

Harvard Sportsmen's Club
250 Littleton County Rd.
Harvard, MA 01451

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Magazine issue aside, even travelling to MA with a firearm for a match seems risky if you are a non-resident.  I was hoping to attend this year, but I don't want to become an accidental felon.

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On 1/4/2017 at 2:23 PM, USA said:

Magazine issue aside, even travelling to MA with a firearm for a match seems risky if you are a non-resident.  I was hoping to attend this year, but I don't want to become an accidental felon.

Its funny how many people I know that feel the same way.  I'm surprised that most everyone here is so confident traveling and shooting in MA with their laws.  Having an ever harder time understanding why USPSA would put its members in jeopardy like that.

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Magazine issue aside, even travelling to MA with a firearm for a match seems risky if you are a non-resident.  I was hoping to attend this year, but I don't want to become an accidental felon.



So much this.

First of all, you typically would need an LTC to even possess a handgun in MA. MGL Chap 140 Section 131G provides an exemption for non-residents taking part in a competition, providing that you are:

"a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;"

Basically, if you don't have a home-state permit (good luck NJ / NYC shooters) you may not make use of that exemption. A non-resident LTC requires a live fire qualification in Boston - a non-trivial barrier.

Even if you do have a home-state permit, it probably doesn't meet the stringent requirements of the law - that your state prohibits the issuance of permits or licenses to "persons convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs." Last I read on this, some states meet this requirement (I.e. Denial of permit for any possession conviction ever), some do not.

So you have an out of state permit from CT or PA, you're good to shoot open with your pre-ban mags, right?

Nope! Without a non-resident LTC-A you cannot possess a large capacity feeding device in MA.

But, you can still shoot production, right?

Probs not! If your handgun has ever shipped in a SKU with mags holding more than 10 rounds, it is a "Large capacity weapon" - you need an LTC-A to possess it in MA.

No problem, you are one of the six people from a LTC compliant state shooting revolver. Just make sure you stock up on ammo before you show up - can't buy ammo as an MA non-resident.

And if you're gonna just drive the speed limit and not get caught, good luck with that. If you get in an accident and caught with a handgun, the legal burden is on you to prove possession is legal, not on the state to prove it is not.

I understand the practical difficulties in finding a club to host this match. I understand a lot of shooters will chance getting there and back, intentionally or otherwise (PS Rowdy, if you're stopping to shoot the match you're not in transit the whole time). Given the recent hostile actions taken by the AG, essentially retroactively declaring AR owners to be felons who are not subject to prosecution "at this time", and the fact that the date, time, and location of the match will be well publicized, its not worth the risk to me. Nor is it worth the cost ($100 and a day off to visit Boston) to me to get a non-resident MA LTC.

YMMV, but I'd sooner drive out of Area 7 to shoot this match than shoot it in MA.
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Sadly I am going to have to sit A7 out this year:

I wanted to shoot PCC all this year, I doubt A7 is going to offer it. Last I knew Harvard didnt allow rifles in the pistol bays.

Even if they offer PCC, I have zero MA legal mags and I am not going to buy legal mags to shoot what should be, by the rules a 10rd limited match.

I could shoot my PRD gun, but if the above post is correct my gun does ship with larger than 10rd mags

If the above post is incorrect(which I doubt), again I have zero MA legal mags for my PRD gun and I am not going to go buy some.

 

Sucks...

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Sadly I am going to have to sit A7 out this year:

I wanted to shoot PCC all this year, I doubt A7 is going to offer it. Last I knew Harvard didnt allow rifles in the pistol bays.

Even if they offer PCC, I have zero MA legal mags and I am not going to buy legal mags to shoot what should be, by the rules a 10rd limited match.

I could shoot my PRD gun, but if the above post is correct my gun does ship with larger than 10rd mags

If the above post is incorrect(which I doubt), again I have zero MA legal mags for my PRD gun and I am not going to go buy some.

Sucks...

Even if PCC was allowed, yours is likely also a large capacity firearm and possibly an assault weapon so again, hoops to jump through...

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1 minute ago, peterthefish said:

 


When if PCC was allowed, yours is likely also a large capacity firearm and possibly an assault weapon so again, hoops to jump through...

 

The manufacturer has never shipped/sold it with a magazine of any kind that I know of. Would that be a good thing in this case? 

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The manufacturer has never shipped/sold it with a magazine of any kind that I know of. Would that be a good thing in this case? 



Is it an AR pattern gun, or "is capable of accepting any detachable large capacity feeding device"?

If so, it's an assault rifle or large capacity firearm.
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I was planning on shooting A7 this year (coming from PA), but I will not risk going into MA. 

I shot the New England Regional IDPA match at Harvard a couple of years ago, and really did not enjoy it because I knew my 17 round mags could get me in trouble. 

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here is a pic of the letter i took with me to MA to shoot the idpa indoor nats one year. Just to give you an idea as a non resident, in transit to/through MA for purposes of competition with a pistol in my possession. at the time i was in CA so my gun had 10rnd mags and a sku to match.

20170106_114428_resized.jpg

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here is a pic of the letter i took with me to MA to shoot the idpa indoor nats one year. Just to give you an idea as a non resident, in transit to/through MA for purposes of competition with a pistol in my possession. at the time i was in CA so my gun had 10rnd mags and a sku to match.

20170106_114428_resized.jpg



A Glock 17 (even the 10 round mag SKU) is still a large capacity firearm. Only works if there are no variants made for mags > 10 rounds.

It's unlikely you would get jammed up, but the very small probability is balanced by the very large penalty to make it a substantial risk IMO, and one anyone shooting the match without an MA non-resident permit should be aware of.

Again, the MA AG stuck her finger in the eye/ of gun owners last July when she declared that she was just enforcing the gun laws on the books like gun owners keep saying we should do in declaring all ARs sold in the state since the MA AWB (even ARs openly marketed and sold as MA compliant) to be non-compliant, essentially declaring their owners to be felons.
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We got a bunch of debbie downers here. Go shoot the match, Max Michel showed up with a camera crew which aired on T.V. in 2011 A7 along with some other big name shooters and he shot OPEN. OPEN/OPEN not    OPEN 10..... I live in MA and I'm shooting OPEN.

Edited by Shmella
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Sounds like a great place for the state to send some troopers to hang out "check paperwork" or look for "dangerous contraband" to snag up some new felons. You know, just some "random" spot checks.



Yup. And again, while the odds of that are small, given the current climate of the state I don't have a hard time believing the AG would love the opportunity to make headlines about how supposed law abiding gun owners are anything but.
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We got a bunch of debbie downers here. Go shoot the match, Max Michel showed up with a camera crew which aired on T.V. in 2011 A7 along with some other big name shooters and he shot OPEN. OPEN/OPEN not    OPEN 10..... I live in MA and I'm shooting OPEN.



With respect, this is just not good advice. While your chances of getting caught is low, the risk isn't worth it. Assuming an average income level, defending your self in court against a felony will be a life changing event for most people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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1 hour ago, L3324 said:

 


With respect, this is just not good advice. While your chances of getting caught is low, the risk isn't worth it. Assuming an average income level, defending your self in court against a felony will be a life changing event for most people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

...and that's assuming you win. The deck will be stacked against you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

There have been several questions about the legality of out-of-state competitors coming into MA for a match.

 

First, here’s the obligatory “I’m not a lawyer and I don’t play one on TV or the internet”. Any legal advice you take from anyone on the internet you should research for yourself and ask for citations of the statutes that backup what people said. Again, I’m not a lawyer. The following info has been reviewed with others with more experience with the laws regarding firearms in Massachusetts, and I’ve included the statute citations and links to the MA laws for you to read for yourself. Don’t take the words of internet keyboard commandos. There is lots of incorrect information being spread around. Having said all that….

Question: Can non-residents come into MA for a competition?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Chapter 140, Section 131G. Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions

Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs....”

 

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131G

This law has remained unchanged for years. MA has a long history of hosting big matches, including many USPSA, IDPA, and others. So yes, non-residents are fine coming into MA for a competition.

=

Question: What's the deal with magazine capacity?

------------------------------------------------------------------

“Chapter 140, Section 121:  Firearms... definitions….application of law; exceptions

Large capacity feeding device'', (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term ''large capacity feeding device'' shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.”

 

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

Basically MA still lives under the old Federal Assault Weapons ban. So pre-ban magazines are fine. The magic date for the mag is 'on or before 9/13/1994'. Anything manufactured after that date must be 10 rounds or less.

Also see:  https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131m (note section 121 is about getting a dealer’s license, so if you’re not a dealer or not LEO, you can not have a post-ban hi-cap mag in MA).  Again, pre-bans are fine.

=

Question: But I heard that non-residents couldn’t even bring pre-ban mags?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Chapter 269, Section 10: Carrying dangerous weapons...; possession of large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device; punishment

Section 10. (a) Whoever, except as provided or exempted by statute, knowingly has in his possession; or knowingly has under his control in a vehicle; a firearm, loaded or unloaded, as defined in section one hundred and twenty-one of chapter one hundred and forty without either:...

…..

(4) having complied with the provisions of sections one hundred and twenty-nine C and one hundred and thirty-one G of chapter one hundred and forty; or

….”

Note the key phrase is ‘except as provided or exempted by statute’. Recall that non-residents are allowed to bring their gear into MA for a competition without needing a license-to-carry. And it’s explicitly mentioned here in exemption (4)...  C 140, S 131G is the non-resident statute.  129C is about possession as it relates to an FID card (firearms identification card), which doesn’t apply since a non-resident is exempted under 131 G.

 

So yes, a non-resident coming into MA for a competition can bring their legal pre-ban magazines into MA.

 

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

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Question: I heard that non-residents couldn’t bring ‘large capacity weapons’ into MA too?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same as above. C 269 S 10 covers both ‘large capacity weapon’ and ‘large capacity feeding devices’. And exemption (4) allows for non-residents when following C 140 S 131G.

 

=

 

Question: I heard it was illegal for kids to participate.

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Chapter 140, Section 130 ½: Lawfully furnishing weapons to minors for hunting, recreation, instruction and participation in shooting sports

“Section 1301/2. Notwithstanding section 130 or any general or special law to the contrary, it shall be lawful to furnish a weapon to a minor for hunting, recreation, instruction and participation in shooting sports while under the supervision of a holder of a valid firearm identification card or license to carry appropriate for the weapon in use; provided, however, that the parent or guardian of the minor granted consent for such activities.”


=


Question: What’s this about ‘MA Compliant’ handguns? Can’t I bring my new wiz-bang new fangled blaster?

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Chapter 140, Section 131 ¾: Roster of large capacity rifles, shotguns, firearms, and feeding devices

“Section 1313/4. The secretary of public safety shall, with the advice of the gun control advisory board established pursuant to the provisions of section 1311/2, compile and publish a roster of large capacity rifles, shotguns, firearms and feeding devices, all as defined in section 121, and such weapons referred to in clauses Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of section 123.

The secretary shall, not less than three times annually, publish the roster in newspapers of general circulation throughout the commonwealth, and shall send a copy thereof to all dealers licensed in the commonwealth under the provisions of said section 122 of said chapter 140; and further, the licensing authority shall furnish said roster to all cardholders and licensees upon initial issuance and upon every renewal of the same.

…..”

 

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section1313~4

 

Recall that C 140, S 122 is the part about being a licensed dealer. (https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section122)

And C 140, S 121 (Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions) outlines the definitions of the words used for describing the dealer sales.

(https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121).

 

So, the laws about MA Compliant guns are dealer based and primarily have an effect on what MA FFLs can sell or transfer to consumers.  They do not apply to what you can personally own/sell/possess.  Note that mere possession of a noncompliant handgun, is NOT a criminal offense. This can't be stated enough, as many in MA improperly use terms like "illegal in MA" or "banned in MA" to describe a handgun which a DEALER cannot sell or transfer. It does not impact what you as a person can have. There is no prohibition on what handguns can be legally possessed, sold or carried by an individual.

 

 

USPSA Area 7 Director

Edited by MAShooter
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