Why is is so hard to get people to try USPSA?

[L3324temp]

A match that won't let a card carrying uspsa member shoot without question, should not be sanctioned.

I assumed the policy was for shooters who have never shot a match before, not experienced USPSA shooters.


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[9x45]

The Rio Solado course is for their own club level matches, not USPSA. I have shot many USPSA matches there

 

Practical Shooting Safety Course (PSSC)

Required to Participate in the Practical Matches at RSSC

 

  If you are new to RSSC and  hold a current classification (other than Novice or Unclassified) via USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, NRA Action Pistol or ICORE, you are NOT required to take this course

[tanks]

1 hour ago, 9x45 said:

The Rio Solado course is for their own club level matches, not USPSA. I have shot many USPSA matches there

 

Practical Shooting Safety Course (PSSC)

Required to Participate in the Practical Matches at RSSC

 

  If you are new to RSSC and  hold a current classification (other than Novice or Unclassified) via USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, NRA Action Pistol or ICORE, you are NOT required to take this course

My point above was that if one was unclassified, they made it real hard for someone to shoot a USPSA match. First take the PSSC, then do several steel matches and get a "D" rating minimum which gets you qualified for "Action 101" after than and some other type of matches then one is allowed to do other "action sports".

When I started USPSA I had already shot over a dozen matches (not all matches have classifiers) before I had enough classifiers to get classified. By Rio Solado standards as defined on the web site I would not have been allowed to participate in matches taking place there.

[bdpaz]

3 hours ago, tanks said:

My point above was that if one was unclassified, they made it real hard for someone to shoot a USPSA match. First take the PSSC, then do several steel matches and get a "D" rating minimum which gets you qualified for "Action 101" after than and some other type of matches then one is allowed to do other "action sports".

When I started USPSA I had already shot over a dozen matches (not all matches have classifiers) before I had enough classifiers to get classified. By Rio Solado standards as defined on the web site I would not have been allowed to participate in matches taking place there.

What your are reading as mandatory isn't. It is a suggested progression for new shooters: "Upon successful completion of the PSSC, you are ready to get some match experience under your “belt”.  Below is a series of matches we suggest, in order of the overall level of challenge."

I can't speak for the management but I suspect that if a new-to-Rio shooter could show that he or she had successfully shot USPSA matches elsewhere that they could skip the PSSC. In my opinion it isn't an attempt to keep people away but a method to encourage them by educating them and ensuring they have sufficient gun handling skills beforehand, rather than the pass/fail method of showing up to a match where a DQ is likely to see them never return. I have helped with a few of the classes and seen many of the "graduates" shoot their first match and feel that they all have benefited from the class. 

 

[tanks]

The "Action Shooting 101" the pre-cursor to the full USPSA matches at that club states:

Quote

Because there will be moderate to advanced gun handling required you must have a classification with a recognized Action Shooting organization such as USPSA, IDPA, or ICORE, or you must have a Tuesday Night Steel Classification of “D” or higher.

While I appreciate them wanting to bring people up slowly  I'd submit that by making access to USPSA matches an ordeal they are discouraging people from participating. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in "Tuesday Night Steel" or "Steel Challenge" and if I was wanting to shoot USPSA over there I most likely would have said "screw it" and do something else due to the barriers they are putting in people's way. Not to mention the only thing a "D" classification means is that one has attended enough matches to get classified, so why make people shoot something other than a USPSA match first.

[DukeEB]

6 hours ago, L3324 said:

 

 

I assumed the policy was for shooters who have never shot a match before, not experienced USPSA shooters.


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This is correct.  The safety check is for the new shooter, never shot a match.  It's to make sure they can draw and fire safely and not shoot their foot off more than anything else.

Our IDPA clubs do the same thing for the brand new shooter. 

[Kraj]

23 hours ago, Sarge said:

Bogus. Sounds like the club up in MI that don't allow D or U shooters to shoot matches.

I shoot matches all across Michigan and I've never ran into this. Care to send me the club name in a pm? 

[Nik Habicht]

On January 16, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Sarge said:

Bogus. Sounds like the club up in MI that don't allow D or U shooters to shoot matches.

Bogus?  How about different.  For the record, at the club who's match I used to direct, safety checks have existed since USPSA was created.  That Club was the first club in the Mid-Atlantic Section, and has been in existence for ~ 30 years now, as a USPSA club......

But I'm sure if I walked back in and told them that they were doing it all wrong, according to your opinion, they would immediately see the wisdom of your words, and mend their bogus ways.  [/sarcasm]

In my opinion not doing some kind of competitor briefing/safety check does a disservice to all who compete at the matches where that's the way it's done.... 

[Nik Habicht]

On January 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Sarge said:

So, why can't we get more shooters involved? Because maybe we come off as elitists by making them pass our personal qualifications to shoot a match. This makes me not even want to attempt to ever take in a match while traveling the country. I'm not proving myself any further than presenting my USPSA card. And if you come to a match I'm running that same card is your pass to shoot with us.

I'm fine with that.  If however your membership card hows your classification as U across the board, I'm going to ask a couple of questions, to gauge your level of match experience.  Tell me that you've shot a bunch of three gun or IDPA, and I'll encourage you to attend the safety briefing -- because it also covers other topics, such as scoring, # of hits required, that we run a cold range, what that means in our terms, etc.  

Show up in the company of USPSA shooting friends who tell me you're IDPA and that they'll mentor you through the match, I'll encourage you to attend the safety briefing. Your friends will likely insist....

Show up as a member, with zero experience, and yes, attending the safety briefing for 30-40 minutes before the match starts really will become a requirement.  Why?  For starters, so the new competitor is safe, and doesn't injure anyone.  After that, so that they have fun, have an opportunity to have their questions answered, and so that they hopefully don't DQ from their first match.  We use it not so much as a barrier, as a way to introduce them to a couple of experienced competitors and to start the conversation about what's cool about this game.  Some lasting friendships have come out of that.

[Chopaka]

As a newbie just entering in to USPSA, I'm good with that, and expect it. As a former executive board member of my club, I demand what you have stated Nik. Clubs located in urban areas are 1 ND incident away from being shut down here in WA.

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

I'm fine with that.  If however your membership card hows your classification as U across the board, I'm going to ask a couple of questions, to gauge your level of match experience.  Tell me that you've shot a bunch of three gun or IDPA, and I'll encourage you to attend the safety briefing -- because it also covers other topics, such as scoring, # of hits required, that we run a cold range, what that means in our terms, etc.  

Show up in the company of USPSA shooting friends who tell me you're IDPA and that they'll mentor you through the match, I'll encourage you to attend the safety briefing. Your friends will likely insist....

Show up as a member, with zero experience, and yes, attending the safety briefing for 30-40 minutes before the match starts really will become a requirement.  Why?  For starters, so the new competitor is safe, and doesn't injure anyone.  After that, so that they have fun, have an opportunity to have their questions answered, and so that they hopefully don't DQ from their first match.  We use it not so much as a barrier, as a way to introduce them to a couple of experienced competitors and to start the conversation about what's cool about this game.  Some lasting friendships have come out of that.

I don't have a problem with a 30 minute orientation for new shooters. I even did that. But that's a lot different than making people take prolonged classes, shooting x amount of other types of matches, or being classed already.

 That Goes against everything USPSA claims to stand for. There are certainly no rules supporting such strict requirements to shoot matches. 

[IHAVEGAS]

Good discussion.

While holding the timer I've had one new shooter spin around and point his loaded 45 at about my center of mass, and a second new shooter start to do the same except with that person I was positioned on his gun hand where you would always like to be and was able to stop the gun. To my knowledge neither shooter has ever come back. Most of you who r.o./s.o. likely have seen similar. 

They both had been through a new shooter orientation, if insisting on more of a class would prevent folks like me from getting wet britches or worse I would be all for it. 

In the meantime, when I know I have a new shooter and that he will need to run backwards or reload going to weak hand side, we have a brief discussion and I confirm that he has the safe way in mind. 

[GrumpyOne]

On 1/15/2017 at 8:55 PM, GrumpyOne said:

Sarge, the date on the card says 5/17/09...so, not so old. I have never seen anything like that either...

I sent an email to Troy, asking about this...here is his response.

I remember them being issued by many USPSA clubs when new shooters came for their first match.  An experienced RO would give a short presentation on the major rules, and the competitor would usually be asked to draw his gun, load and unload it, know the four basic rules of gun safety, etc.  It varied from place to place, but I believe that USPSA had some sort of minimum standard.  As the organization grew, and club leadership changed hands, this fell by the wayside in most places.  I know of a couple of clubs that still hold new shooter safety orientation classes and won't let anyone shoot their USPSA match until they've satisfactorily passe that class.

It's interesting that you bring it up now, or the guys on Enos, because NROI is putting together a new shooter orientation package that will be distributed to the clubs in USPSA.  I have an instructor and one of our board members working on it.  Once it's done, and I'm shooting for first quarter 2017, we'll put it out for the clubs and there will be an official new shooter safety card associated with it.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Troy

Show quoted text

 

 

 

[Sarge]

And there you go.

Membership money spent on more cards.

More changes to the rule book since matches will no longer be open to ALL.

No more "run what ya brung".

No more, "don't just come and watch, bring your stuff and shoot".

But it may slow the influx of so many new shooters. Matches are too crowded anyways.

And I would imagine if a newbie snowflake gets DQED they will be able to say their orientation was done half assed so they want reinstated in the match. 

Yep, I'm in!

 

[IHAVEGAS]

52 minutes ago, Sarge said:

No more, "don't just come and watch, bring your stuff and shoot".

Thank heavens, it might be worth any downside for just that alone.

Never understood why anyone would think it was a good idea to participate in a "running with scissors" type of activity with zero preparation. Done well, orientation class is fun and increases the odds that the new person will get off to a good start. 

[bsand]

Thank heavens, it might be worth any downside for just that alone.

Never understood why anyone would think it was a good idea to participate in a "running with scissors" type of activity with zero preparation. Done well, orientation class is fun and increases the odds that the new person will get off to a good start. 

Yeah I probably would have been dq'd if I tried shooting a uspsa match with the holster I had (iwb) for my carry gun.

The safety check was alright, and I got some good pointers on how to properly draw a firearm and did get to run a couple stages where I was able to see my mistakes and correct them without a dq. Ie finger on trigger while moving target arrays. Even though I didn't do that with my ar at TAC rifle matches, did it with the pistol.

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[GunBugBit]

It's pretty easy to get into USPSA matches at my club.  We are the Cactus Match guys at Ben Avery in the north central Phoenix area.  Rio Salado is in the southeast part of the greater Phoenix area and quite a few guys I know shoot USPSA matches at both locations.  Rio has a few national and world champions running around (like Rob Leatham and Nils Jonasson -- you might have heard of them), and yes it is pretty much a mecca of modern shooting sports.

 

Our Thursday night matches work well as an introduction to USPSA matches.  These fall into the category of "club practice" matches.  The stages are usually pretty simple blends of paper and steel so that setup, reset and scoring can go quickly.  The scoring system is "Time Plus" so when people go to their first USPSA match after a few of our Thursday night matches, they still have to learn the USPSA scoring system.  One nice thing is that we do everything on PractiScore now, which has only been the case for a year or two.

 

Shooters who come to their first Thursday night match are required to attend a new shooter's briefing, usually given by Terry Allison, who has been running the Cactus Match League for 41 years.  They are then sent off to shoot the match with the other new shooters and a mentor, who is a volunteer who reinforces how to shoot the stages safely, etc.

 

Our USPSA matches are Level I.  Not long ago, you'd just show up to shoot these matches, but now we have to register, pay and squad through PractiScore.  I do not believe we are required to be classified nor even USPSA members.  My first USPSA match was an all-classifier, and I joined USPSA just before I shot it, so I became a member and got classified at around the same time as that first match.  I did not find it very difficult.

 

Regardless of the hoops that may or may not exist at various clubs or on the part of USPSA, one needs a reasonable amount of get up and go, and desire, to go to one's first sanctioned match, and then to continue going.  In my short time in the sport, I've observed a steady parade of new shooters, but curiously a pretty stable number of shooters that appear for the matches week after week, month after month.  Only a certain percentage of the population is going to be in the group who regularly shoot matches over a sustained time period.  People come on board and people get off the bus.  The circle of life.

Edited January 30, 2018 by GunBugBit

[SingingShooter]

I can imagine there being a multitude of reasons for why some gun enthusiasts, from collectors to plinkers, might be reticent to participate in USPSA or other shooting competitions, but I suspect the biggest factor hinges on insecurities about how people perform under pressure in a competitive arena.  For me, initially, aside from not wanting to be stereotyped a radical "gun nut", I wasn't sure how comfortable I'd be spending that much time with people I didn't really know that were...well...heavily armed! I also wasn't at all interested in a sport that only served to simulate or prep for post-apocalyptic anarchy.  I was also insecure (still am in fact) about my level of physical condition, and not wanting to look like some overweight, middle age fool with a gun, who can't hit the broadside of a barn!  I've since gotten over the latter fear, and my motto has become "Life's short, buy the gun!" I chose USPSA because it was a way for me to stay active, escape the nutjobs I work with daily (and NOT be in a place where that's all people talked about), to exercise my mind by thinking strategically, and to enjoy the adrenaline rush of hearing the timer go "BEEP!" 

Edited March 9, 2018 by SingingShooter

[Mcfoto]

The biggest issue I have is not getting someone to try it, but stick with it. I have two family members who come out for several matches and then stopped. Both stated that the biggest issue was time - particularly waiting for your turn to shoot. My son-in-law who has two little children says its not good use of his free time. He can go to the range and shoot as much in less than an hour. 

[Reekus]

I’ve found it is extremely difficult to get fellow SOF type service members to try the sport out.
I think as a whole this is because service members are essentially told they are good with a gun (mostly in the non-pog grunt fields). Thus it’s hard to go and have your ass handed to you at a match by civilians who don’t have any of the same experiences as you.

This is a nut I’ve been trying to crack and do not have a solid answer on how to fix it.


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[Sarge]

14 minutes ago, Reekus said:

I’ve found it is extremely difficult to get fellow SOF type service members to try the sport out.
I think as a whole this is because service members are essentially told they are good with a gun (mostly in the non-pog grunt fields). Thus it’s hard to go and have your ass handed to you at a match by civilians who don’t have any of the same experiences as you.

This is a nut I’ve been trying to crack and do not have a solid answer on how to fix it.


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Standard military weapons qualification is EASY. I qualified expert my whole career with rifle and pistol and I look like I’m having a seizure when I try to maneuver a PCC around walls etc. After I retired I went and watched a USPSA match before actually trying it thinking I would be a natural. Uhh,,, no! But it looked like a lot of fun so I dove right in. Truth is, these games are not for everybody

[Reekus]

Standard military weapons qualification is EASY. I qualified expert my whole career with rifle and pistol and I look like I’m having a seizure when I try to maneuver a PCC around walls etc. After I retired I went and watched a USPSA match before actually trying it thinking I would be a natural. Uhh,,, no! But it looked like a lot of fun so I dove right in. Truth is, these games are not for everybody

I agree with everything said. Completely, especially about standard weapons quals being very easy.

 

That being said the SOF communities have some stringent quals, and thus produce decent shooters. Regardless though, I think out of the plethora of guys I’ve seen (usmc, usasoc, afsoc) only one has been consistently interested in competitive shooting outside the military. Like I said I think ego is an issue, and it’s a nut I’d like to crack, as I think uspsa et al can be a good outlet for guy as well as there being some real talent to bring to the sport. I wish everyone was like you and had that sort of perspective.

 

 

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[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Reekus said:

I agree with everything said. Completely, especially about standard weapons quals being very easy.

 

That being said the SOF communities have some stringent quals, and thus produce decent shooters. Regardless though, I think out of the plethora of guys I’ve seen (usmc, usasoc, afsoc) only one has been consistently interested in competitive shooting outside the military. Like I said I think ego is an issue, and it’s a nut I’d like to crack, as I think uspsa et al can be a good outlet for guy as well as there being some real talent to bring to the sport. I wish everyone was like you and had that sort of perspective.

 

 

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It's actually similar for LEO's. I know some who are awesome USPSA and 3 gun shooters. But I have also seen many come to a match and get severely humbled. Carrying a gun and shooting it maybe once a year does not make one a competition shooter by any stretch of the imagination. But let's not forget interest either. I'm sure the vast majority of LEO & military folks just want to be able to survive so they get proficient enough to do that and accomplish missions. But maybe they "hate" shooting. Maybe they would rather Hunt, fish, golf or even bowl. I have always said those that want to shoot competition will find a game and do it.

[RangerTrace]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

It's actually similar for LEO's. I know some who are awesome USPSA and 3 gun shooters. But I have also seen many come to a match and get severely humbled. Carrying a gun and shooting it maybe once a year does not make one a competition shooter by any stretch of the imagination. But let's not forget interest either. I'm sure the vast majority of LEO & military folks just want to be able to survive so they get proficient enough to do that and accomplish missions. But maybe they "hate" shooting. Maybe they would rather Hunt, fish, golf or even bowl. I have always said those that want to shoot competition will find a game and do it.

It's all about what you enjoy.  Some of us have forgotten how stressful matches can be in the beginning.  So, if the new shooters don't stick with it long enough to get past that, it's pretty easy to see why some quit.  

[stick]

What I've seen with new shooters.  They are used to ranges that have lanes.  standing and shooting at targets 10-30 feet away.  No thinking just standing there shooting away at a silhouette.  When they experience a USPSA match, they get intimidated with the moving, shooting at speed and the thought process involved in breaking down stages.  At our club, when i get questioned about the shooting sports, I'm always trying to be an ambassador of the game and answer as many questions as possible when asked.  When i ask if they will try a match, the responses are always the same.  This is way more involved than I'm used to,  I don't have the equipment, I'll make a fool of myself or its looks hard.

Not all gun lovers have the bug like we do.  In my opinion, shooting sports needs to be described as a game.  That's what is it for me.  A game that I enjoy playing.