Why is is so hard to get people to try USPSA?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Majority1775 said:

She accepted it and moved on gracefully, she just never came back. My point with that is "content is just as important as delivery". Coaching might have saved a shooter, making a spectacle of someone is my answer to the op's question. Which is what we're answering? Not whether she should've been dq'ed or whether you'd like to shoot with me.


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I have DQed a couple of beginners who never came back. I didn't make a "spectacle" of it and neither should any self respecting RO. Nor did I take them to a safe space and offer them a hug or cookies and milk. And to be honest I never cared they didn't come back.

If a guy (or girl) can't keep a gun pointed in a safe direction during a match the time for teaching has long passed.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, OPENB said:

Beef, the social aspect goes both ways. Could it be your squad might sense you are "stand offish"? I have made some great friends, and enjoy eshooting with the best friends of my life.

If you are near SW Ohio, I invite you to come to our several clubs. Some of the best people anywhere.

+1 Out of all the shooters I have met in SW Ohio , and anywhere else for that matter, over the course of 7-8 years, I can count on one hand the number of them I don't care to shoot with if I can avoid it. 

[Majority1775]

Where do you typically shoot?


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[BC27]

IMO, getting firearm owners/enthusiasts to shoot USPSA, 3Gun or any other form of organized shooting competition will never generate a lot of interest.  It's the same reason most of us do not take our cars to the race track, let alone actually compete in races with our cars or bikes.  I'm sure most of us love our cars too.  I used to be heavily involved in track days and amateur racing both cars and motorcycles but the reality is, most sports car and motorcycle enthusiasts aren't interested in actually racing their cars or bikes for various reasons (Cost, intimidation, dedicating the time, maybe all of the above, etc...)  Most of my friends with sport bikes have zero interest in going to the track because of those reasons even though they're very good riders and tear it up in the canyons.  Most would rather just go for a spirited ride with their buddies.  I think most gun owners would rather just plink with their friends for the same reasons.

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by BC27

[rowdyb]

there's a difference between gun owner, shooter and competitor. not everyone wants to travel along that continuum.

as i think about things i owned that people wanted me to get more into, whether it was a tennis racquet or a motorcycle for me it always came down to time and or money. so i should retract my ego statement from earlier.

i can believe the social thing a bit. it's not fun to bring someone to the match who isn't shooting. we may see lots of people at the match, but how many of them do you hang out with, away from the range, doing non-shooting things? i've made maybe four friends in four years where we go to the movies ride motorcycles, hang out as couples or whatever. most of my shooting friends are just that, shooting friends.

the people i've seen get into shooting and stick with it all had 1. extra money to spend however they wanted each month. not tens of dollars but hundreds. 2. no kids at home. 3. a job where they never worked weekends. i've met a lot of people who tried it, bought gear, loved it and said they were totally into it. but time and money drug each of them away from uspsa as either just pure recreation or as a competitive outlet.

to remind myself of what it would be like to go back to a first timer i looked back at what i spent for my first competition set up. glock 34 $550. three more mags $65. holster, belt, 4 mag pouches $175. i just wore sunglasses, shoes i had, jeans, hat i owned, used an old backpack as a range bag. so then i was looking at a recurring cost of $25 per match and 200 rounds of ammunition per weekend at $60.

that was $800 ish to start shooting a stock gun and then $85 bucks every weekend after that. yep, i can see how that's a tough sell to people i've met. throw in drive 30 minutes to shoot. be there 5 hours for 6 stages at say 30s of shooting a piece and the drive home so 6 hours spent for 3 minutes of your own shooting. they say you have either time or money. well to enjoy shooting it seems you have to have both. tough go...

[ziebart]

I think changing the match to a festival would increase participation.  Think about how many people show up to zert events.  It would be relatively simple too.  Eliminate the timer and scoring targets. Let people run through the course shooting unpactched targets should save a bunch of time.  Replace falling steel with static plates. Implement "tee times" for everyone so squads are small.  A clubhouse while waiting for tee time may be harder, but would help I think.  Could even do mini training sessions with people.  Think 5-30 minute this is how to draw your gun without shooting yourself.

 

Ya it's lame for those of us who compete, but this isn't a competition it's an outing.  It would need to be marketed as such.

[L3324temp]

For the social part I've found that many people do meet up for lunch after the smaller club matches.


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[tanks]

2 hours ago, ziebart said:

I think changing the match to a festival would increase participation.  Think about how many people show up to zert events.  It would be relatively simple too.  Eliminate the timer and scoring targets. Let people run through the course shooting unpactched targets should save a bunch of time.  Replace falling steel with static plates. Implement "tee times" for everyone so squads are small.  A clubhouse while waiting for tee time may be harder, but would help I think.  Could even do mini training sessions with people.  Think 5-30 minute this is how to draw your gun without shooting yourself.

 

Ya it's lame for those of us who compete, but this isn't a competition it's an outing.  It would need to be marketed as such.

Well, the thread was attracting people for USPSA, what you are talking about is attracting people to shooting. I don't think it is a good idea to run people through a USPSA type COF if they need a training session on "how to draw your gun without shooting yourself". 

What you are suggesting is basically a GSSF match  .

[9x45]

tanks, yea, but what the heck is a "zert"? If it's not timed and scored, it's not a competition. Even GSSF is timed and scored.... And I'm not going anywhere near someone who doesn't know how to draw their gun, might as well go to a public range then.

 

ziebart, I take it you've never shot a sanctioned USPSA match?

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by 9x45

[9x45]

Majority "Uspsa members are intimidating to some, my wife got got dq'ed from her first match for going 91.5 degrees left. Into a cornfield mind you, 0 danger but some ass with a 6" Brazos (cough compensator cough) halts the entire match and starts lecturing her on safety."

First of all, don't believe that just because someone has a shot timer, that they are a certified RO, most are not, and Level I matches do not require it. Also don't assume they are a USPSA member, you don't have to be a member to shoot. And you are entitled to be upset, not about the DQ, but about the way it was handled. When you DQ someone, the RO says Stop per 8.3.5. Next they call out the USPSA rule the shooter has violated, you do it politely, but to the point, the shooter knows they made a mistake. They are done for the day, but more than welcome to come back next week. Maybe work on that moving reload so it won't happen again. There is no requirement for a lecture, especially in front of the squad. And I'm surprised that one of the more experienced shooters didn't put a stop to this jerk RO. That kind of behavior is not representative of USPSA nor is it welcome. Now you know to have a word with anyone who does that  and also take it to the match director. Hope your wife comes back

Don't think the entire match was stopped because of that though....

10.3 Match Disqualification – General Regulations
10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.
10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the inci-dent, on the competitor’s score sheet, and the Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

 

[GrumpyOne]

On 12/31/2016 at 11:06 PM, TonytheTiger said:

Clever. You sir have truly got life by the nuts.

 

[ziebart]

Tanks,

Yes, it is not USPSA nor is it even GSSF.  It would tie into a lot of the excuses that people make up, or have been brought up in this thread.  Someone posted how there is a full day course on how to draw a gun.  If that is an intimidation factor then it needs to be addressed.  If not in a clinic, how?  Eliminating scoring would reduce the intimidation factor as someone does not know how they truly did in comparison to others.  Some people are happy as dirt shooters, but a few would start asking how they did and want to shoot an actual USPSA match.  Think about bowling, how many people actually know how to score a game vs just like throwing the ball down the lane a couple times a year while drinking some beer with friends.  Some people know nothing other than the square range standing behind the counter so this would be a way to introduce action shooting to those people.

 

9x45,

ZERT = https://zertnation.com/about-z-e-r-t/?v=7516fd43adaa  

Yes, I have shot sanctioned USPSA matches.  I am not sure what would give you the idea that I had not.

"why is it so hard to get people to try USPSA" the thread title

" I'm not going anywhere near someone who doesn't know how to draw their gun" - how do you think people learn this skill?  Public ranges do their best to scare people against holster use so its unlikely they will learn there.  Many people do not have the desire to actively search out information available.  They need to be taught, in person, by a real living human. 

We have no problem DQ'ing people for breaking the rules, but many of us have no intention of trying to teach people.  It is one thing to say RTFM, but the book does not go into technique.  Besides that did you read the rule book before your first match?  How many people do you think do?

[Gary Stevens]

This is the only direct competition sport I am aware of where your opponent will loan you their gun, their ammo, and tell you a better way to shoot a stage than they did.

As for DQ's I make the call, explain the call, express regret to the shooter, explain their options (or lack of options). That covers all the bases. Give the shooter an opportunity to maintain dignity.

Treat people like you would like to be treated, right up until they won't let you.

Can't go wrong that way.

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

This is the only direct competition sport I am aware of where your opponent will loan you their gun, their ammo,

Off track a little bit, but I would tell a friend not to do that, just in case something occurred. 

Probably could not get sued successfully if it was factory ammo and a completely stock gun though. 

[tanks]

5 hours ago, ziebart said:

..." I'm not going anywhere near someone who doesn't know how to draw their gun" - how do you think people learn this skill?  Public ranges do their best to scare people against holster use so its unlikely they will learn there.  Many people do not have the desire to actively search out information available.  They need to be taught, in person, by a real living human. 

Take lessons? Either in group or private. The amount one spends in lessons is usually much less than one spends in ammo etc. if one is serious. One argument people mention is money. Well, I remember a thread here in cost of hobbies. A lot of other hobbies cost much, much more than competing in a shooting sport, even with regular coaching cost. 

[9x45]

Zie, I got the idea that you don't shoot USPSA because I'd never heard of anything called zert. In my experience (excluding LEO) training and competition shooters usually have opposite views.

Edited January 3, 2017 by 9x45

[Youngeyes]

13 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

This is the only direct competition sport I am aware of where your opponent will loan you their gun, their ammo, and tell you a better way to shoot a stage than they did.

As for DQ's I make the call, explain the call, express regret to the shooter, explain their options (or lack of options). That covers all the bases. Give the shooter an opportunity to maintain dignity.

Treat people like you would like to be treated, right up until they won't let you.

Can't go wrong that way.

Well said Sir. Looking forward to seeing you at this years Battle.

[9x45]

16 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Treat people like you would like to be treated, right up until they won't let you.

Can't go wrong that way.

Yup, with dignity and respect.

[Majority1775]

Not to hijack the thread anymore but it wasn't the RO that called it out, some random guy stopped it and then continued his spectacle post the stoppage. She had already unbelted, packed up and was heading to car and he came over for another lecture.
RO didn't seem to care and she never pulled the trigger...she caught herself and moved her feet...but it was an infraction and she got dq'ed.


Point being...small infraction compared to heinous shit getting overlooked.

Along someone else's point...6 hours of standing/driving/pasting for 3 minutes of shooting is just not for some people. Best post I've seen regarding this topic. I friggin love it myself.


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[TK66]

I just took the first step and joined USPSA!  Really looking forward to a new game.  

 

TK

[Majority1775]

It's awesome...I believe seeing your practice become improved scores is the best. Congratulations on your joinery...:-)


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[9x45]

Major, except that only the RO can call a DQ, not "some guy". Was this a sanctioned USPSA match?  If this guy followed you to the car, you should have told him to FO in no uncertain terms, and then have a serious talk with the match director. Yes, unfortunately there are "some guys" like this from time to time in both USPSA and IDPA. Just because you are new doesn't mean you are to be treated this way. 

 

By the way, who actually issued the "Unload and show clear" command after the incident???

7.1 Match Officials
The duties and terms of reference of Match Officials are defined as follows:
7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet

 

some reference post

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by 9x45

[Manwithnoname]

Being an LEO I stared USPSA to improve my shooting and gun handling, I stayed because I enjoy the sport. I've tried to get other LEOs to come shoot matches, but I've only been able to get one guy to come out and he never came back. He was in a special unit in the Marines and has been an LEO for a long time. He thought he was going to dominate and I think it crushed his ego to be smashed by an IT guy.

 I have a good buddy who works at a local department who competes with me in uspsa. We both did the State Police and Fire Games last year and he got first and I got second. The scoring for the match is time plus penalties. I was over two minutes ahead of the next competitor in a five stage match. Needless to say, most LEOs don't bother to practice outside of their agency mandatory qualifications (1-4 times a year). According to FBI statistics LEOs have an 80% miss rate in lethal force encounters. A little competition might help that. 

[M1911]

I start people shooting .22s at Steel Challenge.  It is a lot less intimidating than USPSA.

[M1911]

On 1/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, Majority1775 said:

Uspsa members are intimidating to some, my wife got got dq'ed from her first match for going 91.5 degrees left. Into a cornfield mind you, 0 danger but some ass with a 6" Brazos (cough compensator cough) halts the entire match and starts lecturing her on safety. I've seen FAR worse from experienced club leaders, AD's and flagging. Wife has never shot again...I've begged trust me, she shoots better than I do.

That sucks.  I was an SO in that other sport, and in the process DQed several people.  I never lectured or demeaned the people that I DQed.  I always treated them with respect.