Newbie overwhelmed by choices

[gavagai]

I'm a complete novice with rifles. I've only shot pistols before. I'm keen to get advice as I research how to get into competitive rifle shooting. I would like to do precision rifle, but my range options are limited. Hope this still qualifies for this forum at these ranges. I checked the forum but only found one relevant thread and it's 8 years old.

So, here's my situation...

Great (5 mins) access to 100,200 yd range. Good (45 mins) access to 400 yd range. Reasonable (1.5 hour) access to 300,600 yd range.
Near vision is gone. I use red dots on pistols now. 
Only interested in competition shooting - not a hunter.
Compatible local area competitions per year are: 1 x offhand (scope allowed) @ 100, 1 x NRA any sight (rule 3.3.2) @ 100, 1 x F-class @ 300, 600, 1 x (reduced target) F-class @ 100. Along with USPSA pistol comps that's enough for me.
No plans to reload for now, so good factory ammo availability is a requirement. That might change if I get a taste for it.
Realistically, I'm never going to have the time to travel to true long range events, so it's 600 yd max.

So, my questions are probably obvious:
What kind of rifles are a good fit for these opportunities? Calibers? How should I apportion money to rifle vs scope vs attachments?
I've done a lot of web research, but the choices are a bit overwhelming. Bolt action vs semi auto? 6.5 CM vs 223? I'm mostly looking for broad directions that I can follow up research on, but I'll take specific advice too gladly.

My budget is $3k all up, starting from absolutely nothing, and I'm unlikely to have enough money to keep upgrading beyond barrel replacements etc, so it's kind of an endgame rifle for me. In the absence of advice I would be thinking about an accuracy oriented AR or a 6.5CM Ruger Precision or Savage BA10. I'm trying to digest the optics advice in the FAQ.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Very personal, but I wouldn't spend $3,000 for 4 matches/year ...

And, three of the matches are at 100 yards - should be able to get by with the .223 - lots of factory ammo.    

[gavagai]

Thanks, Jack. That's a hard max for rifle, optics and anything else I need. I'll gladly spend (way) less if I can be "competitive" at those matches. To give a USPSA analogy, I would be happy with a PRP/Springer XDM or Apex M&P level of competitiveness - I'm not looking for a tricked out Accu Shadow, but I don't want a stock Glock 19 either. Unfortunately, I don't really know what that means for rifles. This will likely be my only rifle, so I don't need to "buy once, cry once" on optics or anything either. Cheaper is definitely desirable.

[JimmyBob]

Well, there isn't really a great setup that will let you do all that.  A rifle setup for 100yd offhand shooting is going to look nothing like an F-class benchrest sled, and NRA Hi-power is going to call for a more traditional "match target" type AR or similar. 

 

You're almost completely limited to an AR in 223; it needs to be slingable for NRA HP, light enough to hold offhand and in 223 to qualify for F-class TR division, if your local matches don't have an F-AR division. 

I would recommend an AR with 2 uppers to switch between; a lightweight slingable one for NRA/offhand matches and a heavy bipoded benchrest one for F with a premium barrel.

[JimmyBob]

As for glass, don't completely buy into the BS of the glass needs to cost as much as the rifle. 

Now having said that, the glass is more important than the rifle for benchrest and I definitely have been guilty of putting optics worth more than stuff below it, but it's not necessary, the key is to not cheap out and try to get away with a scope costing 1/10th of the rifle and expecting phenomenal shots.  There are some excellent deals on the low end, SWFA and Bushnell had some fixed 10x and 20x scopes that are considered excellent entry level $300 competitive scopes, but with your budget you'll be able to swing a $800 Leupold/Vortex easily.

 

 

[JimmyBob]

17 minutes ago, gavagai said:

Thanks, Jack. That's a hard max for rifle, optics and anything else I need. I'll gladly spend (way) less if I can be "competitive" at those matches. To give a USPSA analogy, I would be happy with a PRP/Springer XDM or Apex M&P level of competitiveness - I'm not looking for a tricked out Accu Shadow, but I don't want a stock Glock 19 either. Unfortunately, I don't really know what that means for rifles. This will likely be my only rifle, so I don't need to "buy once, cry once" on optics or anything either. Cheaper is definitely desirable.

The trick is doing it with a single rifle, the pistol analogy here is you want an single handgun to enter IDPA Bug, USPSA Open and Bullseye.  Maybe a 1911 with 3 slides could pull it off pretty well, but it'd be a stretch.

[RJH]

Now that NRA and CMP service rifle have loosened the rules and allow scopes and rails, here is what I would do.  Look at a Rock river flat top national match rifle, get a forearm that you can put both a sling and a bipod (not at the  same time) look at white oak for something like that.  Now here is the kicker though those rifles can only have a 4.5 max power ( I think)scope, while you might think that wont work at 600, it will,  People hold 1 moa at 600 with a sling and peep sights.   There are some good scopes with the right reticle for this type stuff. You could add the bipod when you need it for f class

 

Option 2 is forget all the off hand and match type stuff and only shoot f class.  Savage makes a good single shot f class rifle for 1000-1500( I haven't looked in a while) and spend the rest on accessories and a scope.

223 will be just fine for 600 yards, it can and does compete with and win against the other guns at that distance.  And depending on division, 223 and 308 are the only allowable cartridges anyway.

[gavagai]

Thanks everyone. It probably seems all very obvious to you, but it's really, really helpful to me. It's very liberating to be able to concentrate on a single platform and caliber too.

In particular, I didn't realize that an NRA Service Rifle could be scoped, and that both expands my match options enormously and reduces my optics choices, which can't be a bad thing. I noticed that there's a 4.5# trigger limit and I'm guessing that would make F-TR a bit difficult, so I might not be able to get away with just swapping out an upper. On the other hand, I only have one real F-class match available anyway, so maybe I can just focus on NRA High Power and do my best at F-TR.

Does anyone want to offer a suggestion for a decent quality scoped Service Rifle platform?

This one? (per RJH)

Edited December 22, 2016 by gavagai

[RJH]

That one would probably be fine.  You can always call rock river and they will help you out.   A good 2 stage trigger @4.5 will feel much lighter and probably wont be a big hindrance at 600, they are what service rifle shooters use to stay in MOA territory, rock river can do that for you too.  Get the 20" gun though, the velocity will help you at 600.  Also check the CMP forums and US rifle team forum, they have a lot of info on this type of stuff.  I think a bypoded and scoped (even just a 4.5 power) service rifle legal gun would by able to hold its own at 300 and 600

[Absocold]

600 yards with .223 for $3k total is actually pretty easy. The big question that must be answered first is whether you want to buy a rifle ready to shoot or if you're willing to build one.

[gavagai]

If you mean have a smith put together components I could do that. If you mean me, I can barely change my oil.

[Absocold]

Then work backwards.

 

Add up all the gear and stuff you'll need. Rifle case, shooting mat, spotting scope, sling, scope & rings, magazines, etc. Subtract that from the 3k and you'll know exactly how much you can spend on a rifle.

 

In most cases you can build one cheaper than buying but the lower down you go in rifle cost the less difference there is between buying and building. In many cases it's easiest to just buy a cheap rifle with a freefloating handguard and a stainless 1:7 full length gas barrel from a decent manufacturer and immediately upgrade the trigger and then the barrel if necessary - often a cheap barrel works just fine once you find ammo it likes.

 

Ammo selection will be a key factor since you're not reloading. Plan on buying at least ten different boxes of 69-77gr match ammo to try out. 223/556 barrels are often very ammo sensitive, most are at least 1 MOA capable once you find the ammo it likes and it's no surprise to even get sub-MOA. Half-MOA and better is usually reserved for high-end match barrels with handloads but there are frequent lucky "jackpot!" barrels from the discount houses.

 

Once you've got a better estimate of how much you can spend on the rifle itself, we'll have a better idea of which way to steer you.

[davsco]

try to find and attend some of those longer range matches and see what everyone is using.  most if not all shooters will let you play with their gear and even shoot it some.  best way to see what you like and feels best for you.

imo, glass is a very important part of the accuracy equation, can't hit what you can't see.  you don't want to cheap out here.  per above, check out everyone's optics.  nightforce and vortex are two of the tops.

my first precision rig was a dpms LR308 ar-10 heavy 24" bbl in 308.  after i installed a geissele 2 stage trigger, it was definitely sub-moa out to 600 yds (the furthest i measured) with Federal factory ammo.  i think with the trigger and a magpul PRS stock i added it was around $1800 excluding optics.  i have (and love) the nightforce nxs 5.5-22x56 and that (with the gun) will put you well over your total budget, but hey, budgets are just starting points, right...

[gavagai]

@Absocold I'll do some research on this and post my findings. Thanks for the list.

@davsco I'll certainly attend some matches when the weather improves and get the lay of the land.

As a new level set, I am intrigued by scoped service rifle which has a lot of match support in my area and which seems interesting to me (thanks @RJH). So I guess my focus has moved away from F-class a bit toward National Match events. Half of them are still run at 200-600 yards here though, so 600 yard range remains a criterion.

I checked out the CMP forums and was horrified that a NIghtforce 4x scope for this purpose is something like $1800, and also that nobody is happy with the current offerings.

2 hours ago, davsco said:

but hey, budgets are just starting points, right...

Not so much :-) Seriously, this is a hard limit. I'd really really like to spend less. If I get a B+/A- kind of gun I'd be thrilled. I like to always have guns better than me but that's not a high bar. For this one I am just imagining that I am a tolerable shooter because I want to avoid an endless cycle of upgrades as I gradually improve to mediocre.

[Absocold]

Let's have a reality check on optics right now. 20 years ago you had to pay big bucks to get a good scope. These days, not so much. Computer controlled manufacturing and high-tech coatings have gotten much cheaper and easier which means lower prices.

 

If you want or need (and can afford) the very best then yeah, you're looking at $1,500 to sometimes more than $2000 for a scope. But unless you're regularly competing >1,000 yards or looking through the scope for hours on end, you simply do not need that much scope. Not even close.

 

With scopes, once you get above the $350 price point you run into increasingly diminishing returns. The more you spend, the less value you receive per dollar. Once you get above the $700 price point, the gains are even smaller. Past $1,000, you have to go back and forth between scopes sitting side by side repeatedly to even notice a difference. The difference is there, but it's very very small.

 

Since you're shooting matches during the day with good light, you don't need a huge objective or illumination. Since you're shooting at known distances you don't need a first focal plane reticle, side focus, zero stops, or even exposed turrets. Since you're shooting 600 yards and less, you don't need a ton of magnification. All you're really interested in is a decently large eye box and optical clarity. Dropping all those high dollar options, there's no reason you can't get a very good scope for under $500 and I certainly wouldn't pay more than $700. If the day ever comes that there's no more budget worries, then you can happily shop for a Nightforce or Swarovski.

 

If you plan on shooting Service Rifle, things get a little different but not much. You're limited to 4.5x maximum magnification and most scopes in that range have fixed parallax too short for the ranges fired so with a limited amount of choices and a sudden influx of buyers, prices are nuts. But there are cheaper options. Hi-Lux and Jim Owens both make good Service Rifle scopes for $325.

 

One last caveat. Remember that the scope market is a lot like the fishing lure market. Most lures are designed to catch fishermen rather than fish. And price is not always a good indication of quality. So be sure to actually look through the exact model of scope you're interested in and make sure it's acceptable before you plunk down your money.

[gavagai]

Don't worry, I mentioned it as a general comment on the state of the game rather than as a consideration for me. Especially plunking down 2 big ones for some kit that you're not even happy with, but I guess you just have to suck it up when you're at that end of the field.  My research so far suggests a $500 max with high hopes for the Jim Owens.

[barebones1]

where are you located sir

 

[gavagai]

Northern Idaho. New to the area. The longer range comps are in eastern Washington.

[gavagai]

Ok, @Absocold, I come up with about $1300 for the non gun stuff. That was a surprise, so thanks for that. Leaving $1700 for the rifle. But I'd be happy to spend less.

[Absocold]

Then figure you have $1,000 to spend on a rifle, $200 for a trigger and $500 left over for a barrel + installation if necessary. If your rifle works out and you don't need the barrel, you can spend the money on extra fun stuff like ambi safety and offset sights (irons or red dot)

 

Stay away from the bottom tier guns and look more at the lower-mid tier stuff. Palmetto and RRA are the only two off the top of my head that offer good stainless barrels, maybe someone else can offer more suggestions in your price range.

 

My shopping list would look like this (season to taste):

 

18-20" stainless barrel (preferably 18), any profile except pencil.

Rifle length gas.

DI gas system.

Wylde chamber preferred, 223 ok, no 556.

1:8 twist preferred, 1:7 is fine, no 1:9.

Threaded w/ flash suppressor (no brakes allowed in some matches).

Free float rail.

Light buttstock that locks down tight like CTR/STR.

EXO coated bolt & carrier if budget allows.

Ambi charging handle like Raptor or Gunfighter if budget allows.

 

---------

 

Just for fun I went shopping.

 

Lower: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar-15-str-complete-lower-receiver-black-blem-7778699.html $190 + FFL transfer fee.

Upper: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-18-rifle-length-223-wylde-1-7-ss-15-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-and-ch.html around $425 when in stock.

EXO bolt: about $110

Raptor charging handle: $65

Trigger: I prefer Geissele SSA-E for match use $195.

TOTAL: $985

And if your barrel is a dud: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-SPR-18-1-7-Twist-Stainless/productinfo/TR-556SPR18/ $220 (plenty of makers to choose from, just an example)

 

There are metric assloads of options available, these are just examples to show that your goal is easily attainable within your budget.

[gavagai]

19 minutes ago, Absocold said:

There are metric assloads of options available, these are just examples to show that your goal is easily attainable within your budget.

That is the problem, right there :-)

Thanks for your suggestions and for taking the time to help me out. 

[IHMSA15151]

I purchased a RRA 20" stainless upper to give the long range precision rifle game a try. Very pleased with it and was able to shoot close to 1 MOA out to 500yds. It is important if you shoot 223 to get a faster twist as the heavier bullets will be beneficial at the longer ranges.

[bfilbey]

I may be completely out of touch, especially with scoped service rifle but I shoot three AR 15 service rifles. I have a Armalite National Match flat top with detachable carry handle, The other two are home baked rifles with A2 uppers. All have NM free float tubes which means they are hidden under  standard hand guards, A2 butt stocks and iron sights. Everything has to look like a service rifle for this class. Either Rock River or Armalite will come with a pretty descent two stage trigger. Shoot it before you decide you need a new trigger. 

 

If you are willing to learn to shoot with irons you can do a lot with one of these flat tops. An "across the course" match is fired at 200, 300, and 600 yards. There are also reduced distance matches fired at 50 or 100 yds with scaled down targets. 

 

Go with a 20 inch barrel with 5.56 chamber. I know most will contradict this but the looser throat will keep you from having pressure problems you will get when firing 5.56 in a 223 chamber. The small theoretical advantage you might get with a tighter throat is best passed over until you have shot a rifle a lot and then a new barrel is easy to swap out. And an 18 inch barrel is not going to cut it in Service Rifle class, it has to be a 20 inch.