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Just curious... What OAL do you load your 147gr? 1.100" too short? (Glock 17)


taymag

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With a G17 use 3.2 to 3.3 grains of N320 with a coated or plated 147 gr bullet oal of 1.135. With a 147 grain fmj bullet use 3.5 to 3.6 grains. You can't go wrong with this recipe. Loading too short, like 1.100 is too close to a compressed load for me. I don't want to blow up my gun.


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One last thing. I agree with the statement "load as long as possible" as a general rule. But I have found that Glocks like a shorter OAL like 1.125 to 1.135 for best accuracy, using N320.


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Gentlemen, I can attest to 57's reloading skills: he has more knowledge than anyone I know concerning reloading. I consider him a good friend, and I just wish that I could remember everything that he has written concerning this topic.

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57, appreciate the detailed answer. I'm on a plane right now so can't type in depth on my phone, but where I was explaining I ran into problems is some of my brass was slightly thicker I guess, so a small % would get a superrrr slight crimp line at even a .378-.379 crimp which was always roughly my crimp that was perfect. anyway, thanks again, I'll note all of that

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On 12/19/2016 at 10:46 PM, njl said:

It depends on the bullet/profile.  With coated bullets, I like to minimize the amount of bearing surface above the case mouth.  Some guns have a tendency to cut the coating during chambering if too much is exposed/unprotected.  

With Bayou's 147gr FP profile with a lube groove, I load out to around 1.14x".  I just got my first batch of 147gr FP NLG bullets from H&S.  To get minimal exposed bearing surface, I've been loading these to 1.005", which did seem kind of awfully short.    I've only loaded a small test batch of these so far...and based on chronograph results, may drop the powder charge 0.1gr relative to what I use for the older style 147s.

I'm kind of surprised nobody pointed this out, but I just realized I mis-remembered the OAL when I posted the above.  I'd loaded the first H&S 147s (which are actually 149s on my scale) to 1.105".  I loaded some more last night, and after comparing them to Bayou and finding they're about 0.020" shorter, I decided to load up a batch at 1.12x".  Most were about 1.123".  I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet.  

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Measuring out to .0001?  I go a little crazy with trying to set up my bullets.  The shell thickness differs by .001 around the mouth edge.  My plated bullets differ by .0005 and I thought that was great.  The diameter of the shell mouth differs by .002.  So it's not a perfect circle.  Setting the OACL is a whole other story.  But using separate seating and final taper die helps with getting better measurements.   It's almost like I need a disclaimer that says I don't have to be perfect. Do I?  

PS  I try for the longest OACL.  With RN bullets, depends on chamber length and fit into the mags.  With other shapes, I don't load deeper than .300 into the shell.

Edited by Wheeljack
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2 hours ago, 57K said:

 

njl, how did you determine that the H&S 147s should be 1.105"? The "Push and Twist" test is easily performed with jacketed bullets and fired cases in 9mm. Plated, cast and coated, not so easy. Remember however, that at common lengths, more of the shank/bearing surface will be inside the case vs. a 124/125. I would not arbitrarily assign an OACL without finding the requirements of your pistols barrel/chamber. It kinda sounds like you're using something like the old rule of thumb that says that with lead/cast SWCs you should only expose 1/32" of the shoulder above the case-mouth. With a RN coated bullet, that changes. The profile of the bullet should be such that the ogive should not contact the rifling because it's smaller in diameter. Then it becomes a matter of the transition point between shank and ogive (Shoulder) contacting the lands/leade of the barrel and unless your pistol is short throated, 1.105" is short for a 147.

Try this: 1.169" is the SAAMI Max spec for 9mm OACL, but that's mostly determined by the throat of the barrel and the length that will function in your magazines. With a fired case, seat a bullet just over that at 1.170". Put it in the chamber and if it's too long the case rim will extend beyond the barrel hood. This will give you an idea of how much shorter you need to seat. With your press and depending on how close you are to having the rim become flush with the barrel hood, shorten in .010" increments, but when you are close, reduce the shortening of OACL by .005" increments. Once the case rim is flush with the barrel hood, check to see if you can spin the cartridge. When you can, you've found the OACL that your chamber will accept; somewhere within .005" anyway. If you want to be really precise, when the rim is flush with the hood of the barrel/chamber, only reduce OACL in .002". Then when you find the length at which you can spin the cartridge, you'll be within .002" of the Max possible OACL and from there, I would reduce the OACL of your handloads by another .005" to allow for freebore and OACL variations caused by your press and dies. If that OACL variation is greater than .005", shorten your handloads by .010" from the length that you found you could spin the cartridge in the chamber. The same would apply to plated bullets that are larger than .355" in diameter.

 

I mentioned the "logic" behind my really short H&S in my original post in this thread:

 

Quote

 

Some guns have a tendency to cut the coating during chambering if too much is exposed/unprotected.  

With Bayou's 147gr FP profile with a lube groove, I load out to around 1.14x".  I just got my first batch of 147gr FP NLG bullets from H&S.  To get minimal exposed bearing surface, I've been loading these to 1.005", which did seem kind of awfully short.

 

 

1.005" would be awfully short for 9mm...but even 1.105" (what I'd really loaded them to) seems pretty short for a "147gr" (really 149gr) RNFP bullet.  I know I could load these longer, though I haven't done the necessary exercise to figure out exactly how long my 9mm pistols will accommodate this bullet.  I guess it would make sense to do that, even if I don't want to load longer, because at 1.123", all I know for sure is, this length fits the chambers and feeds from the magazine.  It could be that I'm 0.001" away from not fitting the chamber or 0.040" or more away.

A while back when I was still relatively new to coated bullets, I had issues with my Springfield .45 1911 cutting the coating on hi-tek coated bullets right at the beginning of the bearing surface if too much bearing surface was exposed...so I've generally tried to minimize that.

The 1.123" OAL I'm trying now was based on ignoring the concern mentioned immediately above and trying to duplicate the internal case volume produced by loading a Bayou 147gr bullet to 1.145".  If the H&S bullets are 0.020" shorter, then a 0.020" shorter cartridge with an H&S bullet seated should have the same internal volume as a cartridge loaded to 1.143" with a Bayou bullet...and all things being equal, similar max pressure...but all things are not equal, since this is a totally different bullet shape, NLG vs LG, etc.

 

Edited by njl
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I just completed "the exercise".  My Glock 17 will chamber these bullets all the way out at 1.167" which just looks silly, spin freely, and drop out.  My P226 appears to chamber them, but won't spin and sticks.  Not until shortened to about 1.150" will the P226 spin and drop them out.

Here they are lined up, 1.148", 1.123", 1.105"

y3mMiw0-jeDo2h3cuMR0y7KGfZ_0zuaYimaczacn

To me, the one on the left just looks silly with so much bearing surface exposed.

Edited by njl
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Before we start condescending to others, we might want to check our own opinions.

 if you use a digital caliper, you might want to prove its accuracy by going to your local machine shop and measure a few of their precision gauge blocks. Some of them, particularly the inexpensive variety can and do have accuracy issues. While you're at the machine shop, see what calipers they use.

Saying that the measurement at the very top of the rim should be .376 - .379" has a couple of problems, the first being that we should be concerned with the measurement at the case-mouth and not on the rim. Secondly, and we should all have a good caliper, by simply measuring the case-wall thickness within 1mm of the casemouth (top of the case), and several more samples to get an average, simply multiply that thickness by 2 and add bullet diameter. If the bullet is jacketed, it should be .355" and no more than .3555" if your measuring to ten-thousandths. This will give you the average finished case-moth diameter with no crimp applied.

.380" is the SAAMI Max case-mouth diameter that should no be exceeded. If you use a case gauge, anything larger probably won't allow you to completely insert the loaded cartridge. IMO, the pistols barrel/chamber is always the best case-gauge.

If you seat and crimp in one operation with a cast or poly-coated bullet . . . well, that's your mistake. Most cast and poly-coated are .356" in diameter which means tighter fit to begin with and really don't need a taper crimp which should be done after bullet seating. Using just a very slight amount to prevent the case-mouth from being square can often be a good idea, just not during the seating operation.

When you know what finished case-mouth diameter should be with the flare removed using a jacketed bullet, that can be done during the seating process, so long as you're not crimping to a smaller diameter. Crimp implies that you have reduced the diameter of something while simply removing flare does not and no actual crimp has been applied. In implying that jacketed bullets should not have a light taper crimp is suggesting that the case-neck tension is enough on its own to prevent set-back of the bullet. If you haven't pushed the nose of the bullet into a wooden table top or block of wood, you really don't know for sure. Moreover, it's a contradiction of expert opinion from folks at SIERRA and Western Powder Co. that a light taper crimp will help prevent bullet set-back. And for 9 x 19mm, I've found that .0015", in-between .001" and .002" increments with a dial caliper is enough. .001" can be enough and .002" is not too much. The idea that because the case-mouth will engrave a micro-groove on the jacketed bullet even with a light taper crimp, and will adversely affect accuracy implies that the person stating it has very little to know experience loading jacketed bullets that have a cannelure. With the auto-pistol round, that's all that the micro groove really is, a micro cannelure. Again, best results come from taper crimping as a separate and final operation. Trying to taper crimp while you're seating a bullet will result in variations in OACL. And for those who realy want to get it right, use a separate REDDING crimp die.

So, for you guys that are wondering how we put this all together, lets say we had an average of .011" of case-wall thickness within 1mm of the top of the case, the case-mouth. Multiplied by 2 it becomes .022". Add bullet diameter, .355" and you'll get the correct measurement for the finished case-mouth with no taper crimp allied. .022" + .355" = .377". So if you used an abitrary average of .376 - .379", you may not have removed the flare entirely while it's possible that you've already applied .001" of taper crimp. So, in this case where the case-mouth should finish at .377", go to the taper crimp as the final operation. Hey, there's 5 holes in the top of that press, why not use them all. With that same case, when they have been run through the taper crimp die, in my case they will run .3755". If they are from .375 to .376", you've applied .001 - .002" of taper crimp. Even still, don't accept anything as gospel until it's proven. Shooting from a rest, shoot rounds with NO taper Crimp, then shoot the same number that have been properly taper crimped and compare the results for yourself. Follow the formula with whatever bullet you're loading, but use the dimensions you've actually measured because there is almost always a variation of things between different brands of brass/bullets, and sometimes within a single brand.

 

I like to operate using the kiss principle. Too much information and your teaching points are lost in all the blather.

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31 minutes ago, Red Ryder said:

I like to operate using the kiss principle. Too much information and your teaching points are lost in all the blather.

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Maybe, maybe not. I haven't been reloading long but have ran about 6-7k rounds through and am still finding fixes for things and ways to improve after going back to the drawing board with new powders and bullets when I started shooting more than once a week and changing a few things up.

I am the original poster of this thread and am really just happy to see people taking the time to help out. I think back to what I was doing, the supplies and methods I was using a year ago and laugh wondering what the hell I'd be doing without wondering onto a few forums. Not to mention I would have never joined USPSA :D

Edited by taymag
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Maybe, maybe not. I haven't been reloading long but have ran about 6-7k rounds through and am still finding fixes for things and ways to improve after going back to the drawing board with new powders and bullets when I started shooting more than once a week and changing a few things up.

I am the original poster of this thread and am really just happy to see people taking the time to help out. I think back to what I was doing, the supplies and methods I was using a year ago and laugh wondering what the hell I'd be doing without wondering onto a few forums. Not to mention I would have never joined USPSA [emoji3]


True. I have to admit, I am not a fan of reloading, but I love to shoot a lot. I found a few loads that work for me, mastered there production, and focused more on shooting. I learned many things on this forum. The most important thing I learned is not to spend all my time in search of the perfect load ;)


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"And for 9 x 19mm, I've found that .0015", in-between .001" and .002" increments with a dial caliper is enough."

The shell mouth isn't equal thickness all the way around.  The mouth isn't a perfect circle. The length of the shells differ and you talk in 10 thousands of an inch.  A caliper to measure the mouth crimp?  How about a micrometer?   Well I did it!  A micrometer and magnifying glasses.  A beautiful cartridge.  But, I forgot about the case length variations.

I guess I will have to measure all the shells and get an average length, find that shell, find it's average thickness, measure the bullet diameter to make sure it's average, load to the exact length, with the crimp a .0015 squeeze.  Then if all the dies are set and locked, I can start loading.  Knowing I have loaded the perfect average round, I can then go thru all the other rounds and see what the variations look like.    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm retired.   :P

Addendum:  My WIN brass averages .746 in length, but that's an average too since the mouth isn't totally parallel to the rim.

 

Edited by Wheeljack
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I found that out.  What is needed is a set of figures for median sizes.  Your figures are great, accurate but only for a particular shell.   Now, it's only an idea, but, because of all the variations in sizes we have, maybe this would help.  The first thing we would need is shells as similar as we can.  Using the same brand is the start.  Measure shell thickness not of one shell, but a number of shells and use the average thickness.  Measure the length of 10 or 20 shells.  Throw out the shortest and longest shells and then figure the average length of the rest.  Find the shell that has both the average length and mouth thickness.  Work up your dimensions with this average shell.  Seating the bullet is no problem but the taper crimp might be.  Adjust your die to the correct crimp for this average shell.  Use this die setting for all the cartridges.   The crimp will differ from possibly too much crimp for the longer shell and too little for the shorter shell.  I don't think I can measure the difference as well as you can, so if you feel there is some merit in this plan, maybe you could let me/us get an idea of the variation.  I'm hoping the taper crimp range is +/- .0005 from perfect.       

Edited by Wheeljack
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57K, I think we have covered the subject pretty well.  I learned a lot and my next batch of cartridges will be my best.  They may  not be match quality, but I know how to do so if I  want.  Thanks for all the insight into what can be a confusing discipline and a rewarding hobby.

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