which is better for CQB

[usmc1974]

I was wondering which do you guys think is better for CQB house clearing a 8 inch 223 with standard 55fmj or 8 inch 9mm with 124JHP +p+ and why. Thanks B

[Alaskapopo]

What? why limit the 5.56 to FMJ that is stupid. Use the 5.56 with good ammo such as 75 grain Tap and its a better choice. 

 

[atomicferret]

My agency uses M4's both in a 10.5 and 14.5 config for house-clearing/ CQB role.  We used to use the MP5 10 years ago.  The move to the AR platform was pushed, not so much because of the round (though a 2300+fps rifle round doesn't penetrate as much as a 9mm), but more due to the fact that it can be used in a dual role (short- intermediate distance), the ability of attaching optics, and the manual of arms for the M4 is much simpler and better than an MP5. 

 

MP5's are fun to shoot, but they are not designed to be modular.  For a long time, the options for a PCC was very limited with most having huge design drawbacks.  Now with the proliferation of the sig MPX and AR/glock mag rifles, you may see that pendulum swing back the other way.

[Beef15]

8" 223/5.56 without a can will blind and deafen everyone in the room, even with single ear pro it's pretty unpleasant.

9mm +P+ would certainly be easier on the shooter if unsuppressed.

Both would require you research your ammo carefully. Velocity will be far below normal for .223/5.56. The 9mm may be over enough to make some bullets unreliable.

[thormx538]

Rifle is always better than pistol. More stable platform, bigger mags, and more energy.

 

Personally I'd go with better ammo than 55gr FMJBT too though. 64gr Gold Dot, 75gr TAP, etc..

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by thormx538

[usmc1974]

Sorry, Maybe I should have stated both are AR platform with 30 round+mags.I am building a 8 inch AR in 9 mil Glock mags, plan to shoot PCC but also want it to do home defense..It can use the same glock mags as my CAA Roni 16 inch carbine.

Edited December 19, 2016 by usmc1974

[RangerTrace]

Even with the short barrel, the 223 is going to hit harder than the 9mm.  I have a suppressed 5.5" 9mm AR and I just accept the fact that it's basically a really accurate/quiet 9mm pistol.  I wouldn't want to take it to a battlefield, but it should still serve you well for home defense.  And if you do ever have to shoot it inside your house, the 9mm will be much easier on your ears.    

[dcloudy777]

If you want an 8" gun, IMHO the best option is .300BLK.  110gr Barnes TTSX "black tips" are fantastic from that barrel length.

[usmc1974]

USPSA/PCC must be a pistol caliber carbine 9 45 10 40 or I would go with a 7.62x39.

[RangerTrace]

You have answered you own question....

[Vespid_Wasp]

I can't imagine touching off an 8 inch 223 inside my house.......

 

Unless you are going to suppress it, I would probably err towards a 9mm.

 

If you are planning to start shooting PCC, I would absolutely go 9mm.

[usmc1974]

6 minutes ago, Vespid_Wasp said:

...

 

 

 

If you are planning to start shooting PCC, I would absolutely go 9mm.

That is the main reason  moving around, window and tight corners Fun fun fun.

I also figure 124 jhp at 1400 or so should be better for home defense, so not to over penetrate walls

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

 124 jhp at 1400  should be better for home defense

Or, 115's @ 1,500   

But, subsonic sounds pretty nice with 147's (Pre-fragmented bullets?)

[dauntedfuture]

8" 55g 5.56 is about 2200-2300 fps so think of it as .22 magnum vs.... when you go to 10.5 you pick up another 200fps or so.  I would not go shorten then a 11.5" in an AR.  11.5 guns tend to be more reliable than 12.5 guns.  

[usmc1974]

On 12/21/2016 at 6:21 PM, dauntedfuture said:

8" 55g 5.56 is about 2200-2300 fps so think of it as .22 magnum vs.... when you go to 10.5 you pick up another 200fps or so.  I would not go shorten then a 11.5" in an AR.  11.5 guns tend to be more reliable than 12.5 guns.  

Maybe it is just me, but, when you start getting 11.5 or 12.5 might as well just stick with a little 16 inch m4. My little 8 inch ar is so short and small you could run right up to a window or port. very cool. lol it is going to be fun.

[Nathanb]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:20 PM, dcloudy777 said:

If you want an 8" gun, IMHO the best option is .300BLK.  110gr Barnes TTSX "black tips" are fantastic from that barrel length.

Nailed it. Plus you throw a can on it and shoot the thumper subs and you start to giggle. I fought the 300 for a long time. I'm a huge fan now. Even have a bolt gun in it. 

[kurtm]

Best for house clearing? Throw in a railway flare! Now your outside and can use a big old honkin  H&K91 if you want since what is inside will be coming outside

[Alaskapopo]

On 12/21/2016 at 11:28 AM, usmc1974 said:

That is the main reason  moving around, window and tight corners Fun fun fun.

I also figure 124 jhp at 1400 or so should be better for home defense, so not to over penetrate walls

 

No matter what you chose you going to go through several walls. Best not to miss the threat. Nothing capable of stopping a threat will not over penetrate in sheet rock when the target is missed. 

[RiggerJJ]

Best for cqb/house clearing?

 

A pistol...

[RangerTrace]

On December 21, 2016 at 2:28 PM, usmc1974 said:

That is the main reason  moving around, window and tight corners Fun fun fun.

I also figure 124 jhp at 1400 or so should be better for home defense, so not to over penetrate walls

 

Actually the 9mm is worse about going through walls than 223.  The 223 will certainly go through a wall, but usually the bullet fragments so badly it's not a real problem on the other side.

[jjw]

9 hours ago, Alaskapopo said:

No matter what you chose you going to go through several walls. Best not to miss the threat. Nothing capable of stopping a threat will not over penetrate in sheet rock when the target is missed. 

1. whoever said 7.62x39 in a house has NEVER DONE IT. 

2. if u want to hear again,DON'T EVER DO IT.  i have over 20 work carbines of different shapes and size's.

3. a 12.5 is NOT LESS reliable than a 11.5

4. never seen a CORRECT 9MM penetrate further than a .556 if u hit the the TARGET.

baretta storm  by the bed

1. a/point m-4 -s always on

2. 156gr israli fragmented plane load.

3. 30 rd fac. mag +1 on the stock. 

4. gemtech 9mm can

5. light

6. m&p . on bedside table. 2 - 23 rd mags.

will not go thru 5 walls to get out  do not want a licensed mp-5 on the floor to be confiscated by some local grabby lil cop, to play,with.

gun games fun and we all do them. THE BEDROOM  real world. . scary as hell.  don't ask me how i know.

jjw

Edited December 23, 2016 by jjw

[Alaskapopo]

4 hours ago, RiggerJJ said:

Best for cqb/house clearing?

 

A pistol...

No a pistol is generally not the best choice. Lacks power (terminal performance ie stopping power compared to a 5.56 carbine or shotgun) and in most peoples hands they can not fire it as accurately or as fast as a carbine or SBR. That is why pistols are secondary weapons on all police and military teams even when room clearing. I do like pistols in very close spaces such as clearing vessels. (boats) But the typical house even trailer house is no problem with even a 16 inch carbine. I did have to clear a crawl space a month or so ago and I did use a pistol since we were literally crawling and stooping to move around. 

Pat

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

4 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Actually the 9mm is worse about going through walls than 223.  The 223 will certainly go through a wall, but usually the bullet fragments so badly it's not a real problem on the other side.

True enough with more conventional ammo. I would like to test the new bonded core duty ammo most of us are using now such as 55 grain Gold dots or the Federal 64 grain trophy bonded loads.

[RiggerJJ]

Althou it was not specified in the op, I was answering from strictly a competition point of view. I would not presume to know the answer from an LE point of view. I would much rather use a pistol vs any longgun in a close quarter type stage.

imho

jj

[Boudreaux78]

There are many thing to consider when talking about clearing a house. A good 5.56 rifle round creates a more permanent damage wound cavity than a 9mm. There is no such thing as knock down power. It is about round placement. If you practice with a rifle and understand the limitations and constraints, it can be very effective. However if you don't practice and just want a quick option, pistol by the bed is the best option. A good short shotgun is not a bad option either for cqb work inside a house. Again, whatever you choose, train with it, know it and be comfortable with it. The differences are minimal between guns, the true difference is in the operator. JMHO