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Jim Watson

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32 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

That what I thought until I started reading (half azz) this stuff about vison barriers. I'm just in that end of the year funk ignore me!

I am looking forward to the final rules. 

 

 

Still not in favor of 1sec. 

Oh well. 

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Y'all are confusing yourself on this cover and VB issue. In scenario stages there are 2 types of shooting. One is from cover that must be used if available. The second is shooting in the open. When in the open you must be moving toward cover while you shoot. In the new rules you can both reload and continue shooting if you run dry in the open. (Old rules you could reload but not fire shots after reloading until reaching cover). 

A VB hides the targets from your view and hides you from the targets. The VB cannot be used for cover, but you are not exposed to targets you cannot see. Once you clear the VB and can see the targets you are shooting in the open and those rules apply. Thus you must be moving towards cover. 

What you are missing is the concept that you are not exposed to targets you can not see until such time as you can see them. 

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Oh, I get it, it is just that they confused the issue by calling vision barriers "soft cover" which might give somebody the idea that it would be ok to shoot through rather than around while moving past. 

Also see 

3.6.2 In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move anytime as long as they are not exposed to unengaged targets during the reload.

 

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In the past there wasn't an issue shooting through soft cover or a VB. But Bill's comment on what justifies a DQ does say "shooting at anything other than a target". I take that to say if you shoot through a VB to hit your target you earn a trip to DQ. 

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11 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Oh, I get it, it is just that they confused the issue by calling vision barriers "soft cover" which might give somebody the idea that it would be ok to shoot through rather than around while moving past. 

Also see 

3.6.2 In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move anytime as long as they are not exposed to unengaged targets during the reload.

 

Well I agree that VB's should not be referred to as soft cover since there are rules about soft cover that conflict with the VB rules. IF the rules referred to a VB as soft cover (I don't care enough to go look) then that needs correction.

Your second point about 3.6.2 is exactly what I said. The VB is not cover but is concealment which prevents you being exposed. The basic idea is that if you cannot see the target it cannot see you. Whether that is right or wrong in a gun fight is completely irrelevant. The rule is how the game is managed. Thus my conclusion that IDPA is a game not a self defense class.  

Edited by Brooke
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14 hours ago, v1911 said:

In the past there wasn't an issue shooting through soft cover or a VB. But Bill's comment on what justifies a DQ does say "shooting at anything other than a target". I take that to say if you shoot through a VB to hit your target you earn a trip to DQ. 

Which is interesting, since "soft cover" is defined as something you can specifically shoot through to hit targets.  I'm thinking they are going to need to re-think that "shooting at anything other than a target" thing, at least with respect to soft cover.  Otherwise the concept of "soft cover" makes no sense.

I'm curious, however, regarding a prior topic:  Are you still saying the following is still true?  (This is a prior quote from you.)

"The rule book doesn't say you may reload if there are no visible targets. It says that you must not be exposed to any unengaged targets. A VB is not cover. So you are exposed if you reload behind a VB that leads you to surprise targets."

Because THAT'S the part that doesn't make sense to me.  As has been pointed out, 3.6.2 specifically mentions concealment.   And we have always been able to leave cover and move "in the open" when a vision barrier has created a situation in which surprise targets would occur--and if we would be exposed to unengaged targets doing that, leaving cover wouldn't have been legal.

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You can leave cover to engage a target concealed by a VB, you just can't reload while doing it.

 

But then you can reload and re-engage if you run dry in the open. Which makes no sense to me if you can reload in front of targets not neutralized without taking cover, but reloading behind concealment (VB) is a no no.   

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, v1911 said:

You can leave cover to engage a target concealed by a VB, you just can't reload while doing it.

 

 

How?  If you are exposed to an unengaged target, how can you leave cover? (That's a PE on your next shot, according to the rules.)  If you AREN'T exposed to an unengaged target, why can't you reload?

 

Where in the rulebook does it say that when you are exposed to an unengaged target it is still okay to leave cover?

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Under the current rule book, this is why you can't reload behind a VB:

 

6.28.3 Vision barriers may not be designated as a point of cover for engaging targets or reloading 

 

Maybe under the new proposed rule book this changes.

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21 hours ago, v1911 said:

Under the current rule book, this is why you can't reload behind a VB:

 

6.28.3 Vision barriers may not be designated as a point of cover for engaging targets or reloading 

 

Maybe under the new proposed rule book this changes.

As Jim says, that is not in the new rule book.

But more importantly---it doesn't support your contention that it is okay to leave cover and walk up to a vision barrier.  (You say that is okay, but reloading while do that is not.)

What rule allows you to leave cover when exposed to an unengaged target?  (You are saying that is what happens if you try to reload while walking up to a VB, so the same must be true when leaving cover in the first place.)

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