News from Florida

[Jim Watson]

I got this off Facebook, so take it with a grain of salt.  Includes comments by Bill Hisself.  I have resisted the temptation to insert comments.  I am sure somebody will let me know if it fails Snopes.

Supposedly from the Florida AC from a meeting with the Rules Committee. 

"This will be our rulebook for the next 5 years. No clarifications and updates to these rules. We are separating best practices and classifier brackets and PCC.
So here are the 2017 Cliff’s Notes:
What’s new after the comment period?
1) Cover and Fault Lines. The short version is we renamed the lines as Fault Lines. And use them the same way now. This means if you are inside the lines when firing, you are good. We also prefer physical barriers and objects to force shooters to remain in cover and when they are correctly used, a shooter is good inside the barrier. We intend to enforce this during the stage approval process at major matches. All the shooter needs to know is if you are inside the designated area, you may engage targets.
Here is Bill Wilson’s comments regarding fault lines: "In my personal opinion and in those of many who have talked with me candidly about IDPA the biggest single problem with our sport has been arbitrary cover calls. There have been many competitors leave a match disgruntled over what they felt were incorrect cover calls and the PEs they received. While none of us think our solution is perfect, I much prefer it to judgment calls and feel match officiating will be much more consistent because of the changes. In addition and major positive is that a substantial burden will be removed from MDs and SOs. PE cover calls will be simple now, if your foot isn't over the fault line or you don't move a physical barrier, you don't get a PE, simple as that!!!"
2) Specialty Division replaces Not for Competition (NFC). In it we will allow BUG, PCC, Carry Optics, Weapon mounted lights and lasers. If you want to run a match with these guns, have fun. These are
at a MD's discretion. They are going to be permitted as scored divisions in 'Specialty Matches'.
3) Sanctioned Specialty Matches must be approved by HQ. Local clubs can accept specialty divisions as long as the platform is for everyday use. No Open guns. PCC as a specialty division is an anomaly to the concept of every day carry in most places but not an anomaly to defensive based principals. This is why matches with PCC are considered Specialty Matches. This is not getting wedged into our legacy matches.
Here is Bill Wilson’s thoughts on this:
"Personally I'm excited about the new PCC division and think anyone who tries it will find out like I did how much FUN pistol caliber carbines are to shoot. I also hope everyone understands this is a work in progress provisional division that is totally separate from any of our pistol divisions. Match directors and course designers are encouraged to implement stages where the competitor shoots the carbine empty and transitions to their handgun to finish the stage therefore making PCC very relevant to IDPA. With literally dozens of pistol caliber carbines on the market now of all price ranges it's very easy to get started in PCC. Hope you all enjoy it and help this new division flourish."

4) Next up we codified the Flagrant Penalties. No mind reading required. If you do certain things, you are getting an FP. This is not a judgment call. Innocent mistakes are 10 seconds.
Examples of an FP (non-inclusive list):
· COF requires 6-shots weak hand, shooter shoots freestyle instead.
· SHO/WHO strings / stages shot Freestyle
· Not going prone when required
· Not fully engaging all targets as required
· Not following stage requirement that takes longer than 3 seconds to perform
· Shooting an entire array out of cover
· Speed Reload or similar actions
· Staging an ammunition feeding device incorrectly
· Extra rounds in magazines

5) We have a new Target that has a 4" circle inside the head zone for zero down. The existing 8” circle in the lower zone is still there. Effectively the 1 down zone grew. It will roll out at the Nationals next year. You can make your own using a 4” template in the center of the head while waiting for target manufacturers to add the die.
6) BUG size changed slightly (weight) to accommodate the Shield. The current draft would make them not legal which was not the intention.
7) CCP BOX size was changed because over a half dozen full sized service pistols fit in our current CCP box. There was a table top discussion about size and weight.
Here is Bill Wilson’s comment on these changes:
"I understand there has been a certain amount of pushback from the membership in regards to the changes to the CCP and BUG equipment rules. It's human nature to resist change, no matter what it is, however in this case it was necessary to bring these two divisions to the original intent, which has always been competing with guns the majority of the CCW population actually carry. The original size and weight allowed many of the popular full size service pistols to compete in CCP (we already have 3 established divisions for full size service pistols) and many popular primary carry guns to compete in BUG. The revisions to CCP are designed around Glock 19/23 and 1911 compact pistols, which are some of the most common pistols actually carried on a daily basis, while BUG changes are based on popular S&W J frame and S&W Shield size back-up guns."

 

So that is the weekend BOD discussion. What else is new in 2017?

8) Tac. Sequence is gone
9) Reload rules emphasize Emergency or slide lock reloads. No more stages requiring ‘an IDPA legal reload’ in the middle of a stage. You are only restricted reloading by two things:
· Speed reloads (dropping a mag with a round in the chamber)
· Exposed to targets that are not fully engaged.
10) One second per point will be used.
11) Shooting at anything other than a target on a stage is a DQ.
12) The classifier COF has changed. Your classification will not. Your classifier is good until the next time you need to shoot one and then, you will use the new COF. Equity is still the same.
13) When you shoot a classifier in semi auto, the date of classification will cover ALL semi auto divisions.
14) Memory Stages are not legal. Anything that requires you to take your focus off shooting to remember what’s next is a memory stage.
15) No more 'make believe' stages meaning you may not restrict shooters from shooting anything they see with the stage briefing. If they can see it, they can shoot it legally. An example is: ‘you must move to another position before those targets are available.’ ‘Pretend that is a wall’.
16) In fact, Stage descriptions may not restrict someone from doing anything that is legal to do in the rule book. This is in addition to the old rule that a stage description cannot overrule a rule in the rulebook.
17) The Cover command is no longer used in matches although it is permitted in local matches to help new shooters.
18) Chronograph at matches will be done with the competitor’s gun. MD’s no longer required to run around looking for another gun with the longest barrel in a division.
19) You are now required to wear your holster on every stage regardless of whether you need it because of alternate start positions. No more undressing.
20) Written stage descriptions are required for every stage. They require the following:
· A defensive scenario or a standards (skills test)
· Start position
· Specifies firearm condition (loaded, unloaded, downloaded)
· Shooting Procedure
· Identifies points of cover and fault lines
· Specify using the 180 or points out the muzzle safe points
· Specifies the minimum round count and whether the stage is limited or unlimited
· Specifies if a concealment garment is NOT required
· A descriptive diagram of the CoF is recommended but not required.
21) Alternate Scoring on stages is no longer used. If you receive a start signal, you get a score even if you did not get off a round. Just score the stage. Squibs, slip and fall, crash into something, malfunctions are on the shooter. No reshoots.
22) The muzzle safe point on doors and other handles is clarified to mean when a shooters hand is inside of the safe area. Allowing your muzzle to sweep the area without human flesh inside of that area is not a DQ.
23) Similarly, if you sweep your leg from a seated holster draw, you are not protected from a DQ because of the rule allowing IWB holsters. Once your trigger is available for a shooters finger, your muzzle is in play.
24) Maximum target distance on scenario stages is now 20 yards. Standards are 50.
25) Shooters Code of Conduct has been modified to allow the MD more discretion in issuing penalties for shooters who do not paste and reset.
26) It is now also a penalty for a shooter to cause any disturbance while up-range that interferes with a shooter or safety officer while shooting. This includes distracting a shooter from his concentration while shooting. It also includes coaching. This has become an issue at major matches so we included something in this rule book. The MD must confirm these penalties like FTDR penalties.

With respect;
Rick
Rick Lund, A27521
Florida Area Coordinator
IDPA"

 

 

 

[BillR1]

I saw that on FB. I sure hope it's legit!

[Jim Watson]

Some of it, yes, some of it, no.  Catch Bill's endorsement of Two Gun shooting under the PCC umbrella?  Double Phooey. 

On the other hand, breaking out all the odd guns into Specialty Division makes sense.

[SCTaylor]

It appears they are addressing Carry Optics which is cool. I have a feeling in IDPA it'll be a pretty popular division versus USPSA.

[B_RAD]

The -1 area is gonna be larger.  I wonder if this is because of the dislike for the 1 pd\1 sec change?  A compromise? A way to get out of it without backing down?....

 

The 4" -0 circle in the head box. Is the rest gonna be a miss or -1?

[Jim Watson]

The rest of the head is -1, kind of like USPSA Upper A-B.

I think that is the only enlargement of the -1, expect the body to stay the same.  He says you can draw the 4" circle on a current target. 

[B_RAD]

Double post

Edited December 16, 2016 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

7 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

The rest of the head is -1, kind of like USPSA Upper A-B.

I think that is the only enlargement of the -1, expect the body to stay the same.  He says you can draw the 4" circle on a current target. 

Gotcha. 

 

I actually thought making -1 for the body larger would be a good idea. A faster shot on target is more "defensive" than a slow more accurate shot.  

 

Oh well....

 

 

I like the fault line clarifications. 

[Jim Watson]

I like them firming up the Flagrant Penalty but if the list of offenses is "non-inclusive" there will still be judgment calls or they will have to extend the list and make it inclusive.

[v1911]

Sounds like they made shooting through soft cover or a VB a DQ. That wasn't in the rule book before.

 

And it looks like I'll be implementing the dremel to get my current CCP gun in the box. 

Edited December 17, 2016 by v1911

[MHicks]

The fault lines will be mandatory at any level match? Correct? 

[Jim Watson]

I hope so. 

[extremist]

On 12/16/2016 at 1:07 PM, Jim Watson said:

9) Reload rules emphasize Emergency or slide lock reloads. No more stages requiring ‘an IDPA legal reload’ in the middle of a stage. You are only restricted reloading by two things:
· Speed reloads (dropping a mag with a round in the chamber)
· Exposed to targets that are not fully engaged.

They still need to 100% clarify the reloading rules with regards to:

- You have finished engaging targets from cover and are moving to the next shooting position.  You start your reload

- You come around a VB and now see NEW targets that you were not exposed to but you have not finished your reload (slide is not forward).

Need 100% clarity as to whether this is a PE, FP or NOT A PENALTY.

If this is not clarified, clubs will run the rules as they want.

[v1911]

I would have to see the stage in question but a VB isn't cover. So if you're still in the process of reloading when what you described happens, that's a PE.

 

Example:

You start a stage seated and the table is considered cover. There is a VB a few feet away from the table and running down range. It separates your current engagement from the next set of targets.

Stage description states you must remain seated while engaging the targets in front of you.

You finish engaging your current array and stand up and then decide to reload before walking past the VB. You just earned a PE. You left cover (the table) then started a reload with only a VB separating you and the surprise targets.

You would have to finish your reload seated before standing to not earn a PE in this scenario.

 

Had the VB been the extension of a wall (hard cover). Then you could possibly stand and reload if when you did, you wouldn't be exposed to the targets if you removed the VB.

 

Remember, a VB isn't cover. It just obscures your view of targets. So when you're in the process of your walkthrough and are planning your reloads, keep this in mind. If I removed this VB, would I be exposed to unengaged targets? If the answer is no, then you're good to go. If the answer is yes, then you know you'll be earning a finger. 

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, v1911 said:

I would have to see the stage in question but a VB isn't cover. So if you're still in the process of reloading when what you described happens, that's a PE.

 

Example:

You start a stage seated and the table is considered cover. There is a VB a few feet away from the table and running down range. It separates your current engagement from the next set of targets.

Stage description states you must remain seated while engaging the targets in front of you.

You finish engaging your current array and stand up and then decide to reload before walking past the VB. You just earned a PE. You left cover (the table) then started a reload with only a VB separating you and the surprise targets.

You would have to finish your reload seated before standing to not earn a PE in this scenario.

 

Had the VB been the extension of a wall (hard cover). Then you could possibly stand and reload if when you did, you wouldn't be exposed to the targets if you removed the VB.

 

Remember, a VB isn't cover. It just obscures your view of targets. So when you're in the process of your walkthrough and are planning your reloads, keep this in mind. If I removed this VB, would I be exposed to unengaged targets? If the answer is no, then you're good to go. If the answer is yes, then you know you'll be earning a finger. 

Um....you are saying that the minute you leave cover, when there are no targets in sight, no matter how far from the next position in which you may fire, surprise targets that you don't "know" are even there (and by definition, they don't "know" you are there since you are behind a vision barrier) will somehow earn you a PE?  (Considering these are "surprise" targets?  That are SUPPOSED to be engaged "in the open" after the shooter has left a position of cover, and therefore, wouldn't "know" was there, nor would those targets be a threat until the "surprise" part happens, because if they WERE a threat prior to that, the shooter could not legally leave cover?)

So....then you are saying that if you can earn a PE for being exposed to unengaged targets that are blocked by a vision barrier, that the smart thing to do would be to turn (while seated behind cover) and simply shoot through the vision barrier at the targets?  I mean, if the minute you leave cover you are committing a procedural error by exposing yourself to unengaged targets, and said unengaged targets are not behind cover (relative to you)....then you can shoot them, yes?  Matter of fact, if those targets are an actual threat (which they would need to be---the only time they are a threat is when you are "exposed" to them, and your contention is that a vision barrier does not stop exposure) then you HAVE to enage them through the vision barrier before you leave cover.

Otherwise you'd earn a procedural for leaving cover and then engaging targets in the open.

 

[Jim Watson]

Probably not a satisfactory answer but I see three options:

1.  Rule is clarified in the final edition.

2.  Accumulate "case law" over a number of matches. 

3.  Consider that since blind stages are not allowed, a "Surprise Target" is a simulation, you know it will have to be dealt with, so be sure you have ammo when you get to it.

[v1911]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

Um....you are saying that the minute you leave cover, when there are no targets in sight, no matter how far from the next position in which you may fire, surprise targets that you don't "know" are even there (and by definition, they don't "know" you are there since you are behind a vision barrier) will somehow earn you a PE?  (Considering these are "surprise" targets?  That are SUPPOSED to be engaged "in the open" after the shooter has left a position of cover, and therefore, wouldn't "know" was there, nor would those targets be a threat until the "surprise" part happens, because if they WERE a threat prior to that, the shooter could not legally leave cover?)

So....then you are saying that if you can earn a PE for being exposed to unengaged targets that are blocked by a vision barrier, that the smart thing to do would be to turn (while seated behind cover) and simply shoot through the vision barrier at the targets?  I mean, if the minute you leave cover you are committing a procedural error by exposing yourself to unengaged targets, and said unengaged targets are not behind cover (relative to you)....then you can shoot them, yes?  Matter of fact, if those targets are an actual threat (which they would need to be---the only time they are a threat is when you are "exposed" to them, and your contention is that a vision barrier does not stop exposure) then you HAVE to enage them through the vision barrier before you leave cover.

Otherwise you'd earn a procedural for leaving cover and then engaging targets in the open.

 

The rule book doesn't say you may reload if there are no visible targets. It says that you must not be exposed to any unengaged targets. A VB is not cover. So you are exposed if you reload behind a VB that leads you to surprise targets. And from what I read in the OP post, Bill is saying that shooting at anything other than a target is a DQ. Shooting at/through a VB or any soft cover in hopes of hitting your target could now be a DQ. 

[Jim Watson]

Shooting through a VB will not be allowed. 

"Not exposed" may not be the same as "behind cover".  I think reloading under a VB will be permissible.  We shall see. 

[Thomas H]

21 hours ago, v1911 said:

The rule book doesn't say you may reload if there are no visible targets. It says that you must not be exposed to any unengaged targets. A VB is not cover. So you are exposed if you reload behind a VB that leads you to surprise targets. And from what I read in the OP post, Bill is saying that shooting at anything other than a target is a DQ. Shooting at/through a VB or any soft cover in hopes of hitting your target could now be a DQ. 

Regarding the bold part:  If you are "exposed" to a target behind a vision barrier when you leave cover, then it isn't legal for you to leave cover.

If it IS legal for you to leave cover, then you can reload.

So....if you ARE exposed, AND you can't shoot through vision barriers (um, isn't the definition of "soft cover" something that includes "you may shoot through it"?)....doesn't that mean that on a stage, you literally aren't ever allowed to leave cover?   

I can see it now...first shooter shoots the beginning target array from cover, turns...and then just stops.  Because he gets a procedural for leaving cover and being "exposed" to a target that he isn't allowed to shoot first because it is behind a vision barrier.  So he can't leave, but he can't shoot it first.

So he just sits there. 

 

Jim Watson said:  "Shooting through a VB will not be allowed."

The new rulebook defines vision barriers as soft cover (6.27.1)---and soft cover is defined as something you can shoot through for score. (4.9.4)  Matter of fact, it specifically says that vision barriers may NOT be defined as hard cover.  (6.27.2)

Back to the original point:

It also specifically says (6.27.3) that vision barriers can be used to create surprise targets "for engaging in the open after the shooter has left cover".  If the shooter is allowed to leave cover, then by definition they cannot be in view of unengaged threats.   If you aren't in view of unengaged threats, then you can reload.  As such, vision barriers mean you can reload while leaving cover.  (If you can leave cover legally, then you can reload legally.)

 

Am I missing something?  Is there a rule that says you CAN leave cover even when in view of unengaged targets?  Because if there isn't, then anytime you can leave cover legally, you can reload legally.

 

[Thomas H]

22 hours ago, v1911 said:

Shooting at/through a VB or any soft cover in hopes of hitting your target could now be a DQ. 

Forgot to mention:

Shooting though a VB or soft cover specifically can't be an automatic DQ under the wording of the new (potential) rulebook, though the idea that whether or not you DQ depends on whether or not you hit the target is amusing to me....sad, but amusing.

Soft cover is specifically defined as something 1) you can shoot through, as it is not hard cover, and 2) where hits on targets count for score even if the bullet went through the soft cover first.

And VBs are specifically listed as soft cover.

I note that the rule says "intentionally discharging the firearm at anything other than a target or an activator" ---well, I'm shooting AT a target through a material that is specifically defined as something where shooting through it counts for score.   How is that going to be a DQ? 

[Jim Watson]

I went round and round on the subject of shooting through a vision barrier as soft cover with an alleged rule author on facebook and was told that will not be allowed. 

You may not leave cover in view of unengaged targets.

However, the wording here is interesting: 

3.6.2 In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move anytime as long as they are not exposed to unengaged targets during the reload.

 

Remember, it is all just interesting discussion and speculation until they come out with an official version and an effective date.  Do not retire or buy guns and gear and don't go off in a snit because they apparently changed something to your inconvenience.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Jim Watson

[B_RAD]

Why can't we just have simplicity?!

 

 

 

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a good deal of simplification in the Draft and more available in Bill's Comments.

[B_RAD]

4 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

There is a good deal of simplification in the Draft and more available in Bill's Comments.

That what I thought until I started reading (half azz) this stuff about vison barriers. I'm just in that end of the year funk ignore me!

I am looking forward to the final rules. 

 

 

[Steppenwolf]

Anyone else getting a headache?

I will review this again later after drinking some bourbon. On second thought, I'll just drink the bourbon.