Odessa Straight Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I asked for a Christmas present (it's inbound, I saw the tracking number ). http://www.devildogconcepts.com/hard-charger.html The traditional AR charging handle method of locking back the bolt is not ideal for our shooting sports. My Ar has been very reliable, but I did have a malfunction when a mag didn't fully seat causing a feeding failure and when I tapped and racked again and double fed. To clear this I had to take my shooting hand from the grip to pull back the charging handle again while using my support hand to press the bolt catch. Clearing that malfunction took forever and mostly it was because of the AR charging handle and bolt release locations. I like to lock the bolt back for ULSC and it's the same clumsy drill for that, too (but not under the clock). With a side charger where you can keep your shooting hand on the pistol grip and racking the bolt while locking it back with the support hand I'm thinking these issues will be resolved. A dedicated side charger AR upper receiver is very expensive. The Devil dog Hard Charger is a fraction of that cost. I'll give it a trial and report about my thoughts for it's suitability for USPSA competitions..and IDPA, too, if they really make PCC a Division in IDPA next year. Link to comment
Ming the Merciless Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I wonder if this would work on the Sig MPX. It would probably fix the floppy charging handle problem. Link to comment
diablodawg Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Just use your weak hand to charge. Or get the dedicated side charger. $200 isn't that much and has less things to fail than this thing. Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk Link to comment
mscott Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I would rather have the side charger receiver for about $250 than have extra parts bolted to the rifle personally. New Frontier makes one. https://newfrontierarmory.com/shop/side-charging-ar-9-stripped-billet-upper-with-lrbho/ Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 15, 2016 Author Share Posted December 15, 2016 "The traditional AR charging handle method of locking back the bolt is not ideal for our shooting sports. " That's the reason I'm giving the side charger a go. Just charging isn't the problem it's having to go through the clumsy "fire drill" locking the bolt back with the traditional charging handle that's the problem. Specifically what convinced me to try side charging was when I had to lock the bolt back in order to remove two miss-fed rounds from the receiver. Both of the PPC shooters I've talked with who use the Devil Dog Hard Charger think it's a vast improvement over the trational charger. One minor complaint is that in the USMC we were taught to always charge with your palm underhand so as not to hav3e your thumb and the web of your hand smashed if there should be a cook-off. In order to activate the bolt lock with the support hand while also retracting the bolt with the support hand you've got to grab it overhand (so your fingers are pointed down to press the bolt catch. There are U tube videos showing the Hard Charger being used in comparison to the traditional charger for standard tap-rack-bang drills, but I haven't seen any showing the clearing of a double feed. I'm thinking that clearing a double feed or anytime elsewhere the action requires to be locked back is where the side charger will shine. Link to comment
Aircooled6racer Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Hello: There are many side charge uppers now available. I would take a look at the different designs to see which one will be the best for your setup. My next PCC build I will be using a side charge upper receiver to see how it works for me. Let us know how your setup works for you. Thanks, Eric Link to comment
jrswanson1 Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I have one of these on almost all of my ARs https://www.magpul.com/products/firearms-accessories/miscellaneous/bad-lever-battery-assist-device-ar15-m4 No more fumbling around trying to lock the bolt back, and no taking my hand off of the grip. Link to comment
Rangerdug Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I will say the idea of side chargers, are neat! I have issues with the reasoning that is flawed. 1.) faster remedial action. BS, what are you fixing! As a righthanded shooter(any shooter for that matter) you are going to give a check. That's how you induce a bigger mess. Whether using POPs or SPORTS you are going to "observe". You are not keeping your head in the sights. Even as lefty I still have to move my head. As for comment of keeping your hand on the handle to lock the bolt to rear... who cares you are locking slide back for a reason. Finally your support hand is coming off the gun regardless. The fraction of a second that is gained on the forwarded location is lost with the directional forces. Meaning, you are pulling center line with a conventional CH and pulling the gun left with side model. 2.) Side Charging handles have a what we call at work a fatal flaw. They get snagged on everything. When they do get snagged the gun don't work. One of the main complaints of the SCAR.3.) Ambidextrous, not so much! In reality all of the ambi AR charging handles out there now are cheaper and more practical.4.) Torqued CH? WT% is that non sense. I have spent the last 19 years around the M-4, seen all sorts of issues and malfunctions. Never... NEVER... Never seen a over torqued, bent, let alone a broken (snapped) charging handle.All in all, this is another jewel from the "good idea fairy". Briefs well but not practical. *why if this so revolutionary, why don't you see them on all the best shooters guns? Before you say JP's... of every person I know who bought it, every last one of them wishes they hadn't because they "don't" use it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 15, 2016 Author Share Posted December 15, 2016 So, Rangerdoug, how do YOU lock the bolt back with the traditional charging handle without resembling a monkey playing with a football. You went through some well thought out points against side chargers, but my main hope for the side charger is simply a quicker and smoother way to lock the bolt back. I've heard of that MagPull BAD lever and considered it, but finally decided on the side charger. This side charger is a Christmas present from my wife. She's already paid for it, so thanks for the recommendations to try something else, but... well, I'm committed to using it now Link to comment
Rangerdug Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 So, Rangerdoug, how do YOU lock the bolt back with the traditional charging handle without resembling a monkey playing with a football. You went through some well thought out points against side chargers, but my main hope for the side charger is simply a quicker and smoother way to lock the bolt back. I've heard of that MagPull BAD lever and considered it, but finally decided on the side charger. This side charger is a Christmas present from my wife. She's already paid for it, so thanks for the recommendations to try something else, but... well, I'm committed to using it now [emoji4] I am left handed so I can reach bolt catch with my trigger finger. But for the right handed shooter, not using a BAD like device the grasp the AR around the mag well with left hand, press the the bolt catch with their left thumb, no dirty monkey/ football luv needed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Sarge Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 On 12/14/2016 at 10:36 PM, Odessa Straight said: I asked for a Christmas present (it's inbound, I saw the tracking number ). http://www.devildogconcepts.com/hard-charger.html The traditional AR charging handle method of locking back the bolt is not ideal for our shooting sports. My Ar has been very reliable, but I did have a malfunction when a mag didn't fully seat causing a feeding failure and when I tapped and racked again and double fed. To clear this I had to take my shooting hand from the grip to pull back the charging handle again while using my support hand to press the bolt catch. Clearing that malfunction took forever and mostly it was because of the AR charging handle and bolt release locations. I like to lock the bolt back for ULSC and it's the same clumsy drill for that, too (but not under the clock). With a side charger where you can keep your shooting hand on the pistol grip and racking the bolt while locking it back with the support hand I'm thinking these issues will be resolved. A dedicated side charger AR upper receiver is very expensive. The Devil dog Hard Charger is a fraction of that cost. I'll give it a trial and report about my thoughts for it's suitability for USPSA competitions..and IDPA, too, if they really make PCC a Division in IDPA next year. Price? I can't get anything to come up but the movie. Looks nice if the cost is right. Link to comment
ChuckS Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Sarge said: Price? I can't get anything to come up but the movie. Looks nice if the cost is right. http://store.devildogconcepts.com/t/side-charging-handle-system Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 Thanks Rangerdug, you forgot to mention how you get the bolt back, but I know you release your grip with your right hand to drag the carrier handle while pressing the bolt catch with your left. Although it's not all that much quicker I drop the mag and reach under the mag well with my right hand to press the bolt catch while racking the bolt with my left. Still, it's a two hand job and I'm looking for something which enables me to keep my strong (right) hand on the pistol grip. Racking the bolt with the same hand locking it back seems very efficient to me. Right at $155.00 (free shipping, though ), but I paid more for my Troy Alpha rail, and other AR parts. I still haven't got my hi-speed trigger yet as I wanted this side charger first and those triggers cost big bucks. As far as the MPX, I don't see a Hard Charger for it on their web site, but I've seen MPXs in operation and they look very sweet, floppy charging handle and all. Link to comment
Sarge Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 So, $155 but I can get a side charge upper for $235? I'm not sure that makes sense except that it could be swapped out on other AR's I suppose. Crap, now I'm going to spend even more on a PCC I will probably only compete with once or twice a year for fun. Darn you guys!!! Link to comment
Rangerdug Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Thanks Rangerdug, you forgot to mention how you get the bolt back, but I know you release your grip with your right hand to drag the carrier handle while pressing the bolt catch with your left. Although it's not all that much quicker I drop the mag and reach under the mag well with my right hand to press the bolt catch while racking the bolt with my left. Still, it's a two hand job and I'm looking for something which enables me to keep my strong (right) hand on the pistol grip. Racking the bolt with the same hand locking it back seems very efficient to me. Right at $155.00 (free shipping, though [emoji4] ), but I paid more for my Troy Alpha rail, and other AR parts. I still haven't got my hi-speed trigger yet as I wanted this side charger first and those triggers cost big bucks. As far as the MPX, I don't see a Hard Charger for it on their web site, but I've seen MPXs in operation and they look very sweet, floppy charging handle and all.If you are locking the Bolt to the rear, why does it matter if you're hand on the pistol grip? To be honest, I don't see how that is valid issue or justification for the side handle. If you just racking the bolt, I covered that in my original comment. But to be clear you're removing the support hand no matter what you are using. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
mscott Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I bought the NFA side charger simply because I've never had a side charger and wanted to try one out. So far I'm liking it, but won't argue against keeping all rifles with the same controls, but have no plans to change main 3 gun rifle over. I'm hoping it won't be an issue, but will see as next season comes along. I can pull the bolt back and use my thumb to depress the bolt catch with the same hand. Would be nice if the bottom piece of the bolt catch was slightly larger, though. Link to comment
Bluemooncricket Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I use a Raptor ambi charging handle and a Seekins enhanced bolt catch. This setup is natural and as quick as I need it to be. I'm not sure I understand why rapid bolt lock is necessary. Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) If you care anything about your score then everything you do while on the clock should be as smooth and rapid as possible. In the 7 or 8 matches shot with the PCC I've only had to "rapidly" lock the bolt back once . That was to clear a double feed. Ideally you won't need to lock the bolt back during the course of fire, but... What causes me more aggravation with the bolt lock back are for administrative functions while not on the clock like for flag safety and ULSC. I see some not locking back the bolt for ULSC, but they then do lock it back to insert the flag safety which is required (unlike for with a handgun). I like just locking the bolt back for ULSC and then inserting the flag safety. So, for me, it's more an administrative function concern instead of a speed type thing. With the traditional bolt carrier handle and bolt catch I don't feel smooth and , in fact it is clumsy, I don't care who you are Edited December 18, 2016 by Odessa Straight Link to comment
Aircooled6racer Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Hello: I think for unloaded table starts the side charge upper would be the winner but just by a little bit. Grab gun with right hand, insert mag with left hand, rack gun with left hand and start shooting. This is if you are right handed. If you are a lefty a regular ambi charge handle may work the best. You could also grab the gun with left hand on handguard, grab mag and insert with right hand, rack with ambi handle with right hand and start shooting. I think the real key here is going to know your equipment and practice what will work best for you. Thanks, Eric Link to comment
Steve RA Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I've got a side charge (left side) AR and MK3000 shotgun. Have liked that mode ever since I had one of the AUGs when they were first imported. Never had any problem with charging handle catching on things, only thing on the AR is you want to use a scope mount with no protrusions on the left side. Link to comment
Flatland Shooter Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 22 minutes ago, Steve RA said: I've got a side charge (left side) AR and MK3000 shotgun. Have liked that mode ever since I had one of the AUGs when they were first imported. Never had any problem with charging handle catching on things, only thing on the AR is you want to use a scope mount with no protrusions on the left side. Same here. I've never had the charging handle catch on anything. I don't have a side charging upper on my PCC yet, but its on my wish list. I do have them on my Open shotgun (MKA 1919) and one of my 3 gun carbines. A local outlaw match usually has 2 or 3 stages that start with the chamber empty. On those stages the side charger is beneficial. Possibly not a lot, but its enough that I'm happy I got one. Steve is right about the scope mount. I started with a Burris PEPR (nuts to hold mount to the upper are on the left) and soon switched it for a Warne mount (everything is on the right). Link to comment
Steve RA Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 I use Aero Precision extended which is smooth on the left side. Good mounts and light weight. Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 19, 2016 Author Share Posted December 19, 2016 My Devil Dog side charger came in the mail today. "Mrs. Santa" promptly confiscated, gift wrapped, and put it under the Christmas tree with the strict warning not to even peek at it until the 25th. I haven't had this feeling since I was 12 and had to ogle, until Christmas day, the long shinny package I really thought was that Sheridan Silver Streak 5mm pellet rifle I really wanted. Dad said it was probably just an umbrella (It was the Sheridan which I still have). So, Christmas day I'll slap the side charger on the PCC,and play with it. I'll practice clearing double feeds with snap caps and those table starts with unloaded chamber with bolt forward, and just a smooth ULSC/insert flag safety drill. Link to comment
Rangerdug Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 I've got a side charge (left side) AR and MK3000 shotgun. Have liked that mode ever since I had one of the AUGs when they were first imported. Never had any problem with charging handle catching on things, only thing on the AR is you want to use a scope mount with no protrusions on the left side.So, two problems with is the AUG has a charging handle that is at a canted offset to avoid getting snagged.Second issue, is you are talking about an AUG not an AR-15 (apples and oranges).I haven't figured out how the shotgun fits in this conversation, but alright. Now, to compare 3gun to PCC is crazy. USPSA matches tend to operate in tighter spaces which does potentially open the chance of snagging things. My experience with operating rifles in confined spaces I have personally had door jams and corners grab my gun and extensions of my gun. Now add ports and awkward positions common to all matches to the conversation. You are gambling that it won't happen.However, different strokes for different folks. I don't begrudge anyone from running whatever they want, their gun; their match. However, in the spirit of this conversation and debate, IMO and experience this is a waste of money. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Odessa Straight Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Over the years I've spent most of my money on wild women, whiskey, and guns anything else has been a waste of money. Link to comment
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