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Production Unloaded Start


TaterHead

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The course specifies an unloaded start and the shooter has 11 rounds in his mag. Many do to begin a loaded start, but it is easy to forget. So that calls for a bump to Open:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other
requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the
competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Appendix  D4, 9: Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate?
 

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While it might sound harsh for not unloading your barney mag I think it's fair if you don't follow the rules for the division you get removed from the division. Same story if you don't make weight or the box for whatever reason. You have to draw the line somewhere. Everyone else followed the rules they need to aswell

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On some stages it would be a competitive advantage. If it were 1 procedural per stage, I'd probably take the hit and load my mags to capacity! Saving 1 or 2 reloads would negate the penalty.

 

Now if it didn't bump you to open and it was not a 1 procedural per shot, lotsa gaming would happen. I agree it's harsh but as Kraj said, have to draw the line somewhere.

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I do not see it as harsh, it's just the rules. If you are a Production shooter, you have to remember those things. The first thing you should ask is about is the start position if you don't hear it while the WSB is being read. You could always start in Open and never have to worry about it :) Then again, you can always just start with 10 and again, never have to worry about it.

A procedural is given when you don't follow a procedure, something told to do that you follow mostly while shooting the CoF. If you don't meet a division requirement, you are just not in that division anymore and it's not fair to all the others who follow the requirements.

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Too harsh would be a DQ for an equipment issue.  A bump to Open at least allows you to finish the match, and you can still compare your scores to the other Production shooters after the fact.

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26 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate?

Per round, per mag or per stage?  I could think of stages where a -10 procedural might be worth it to start with a 33rd mag in Production. :)

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Shoot Production or L-10 for any length of time, and you'll learn to remove that Barney mag from your pocket as soon as you read "unloaded start" on the WSB.  Just part of shooting in those Divisions.

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8 hours ago, TaterHead said:

The course specifies an unloaded start and the shooter has 11 rounds in his mag. Many do to begin a loaded start, but it is easy to forget. So that calls for a bump to Open:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other
requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the
competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Appendix  D4, 9: Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

So, my question is: Isn't that a bit harsh? To ruin an entire match because of 1 extra round? Perhaps just a procedural would be appropriate?
 

Would you feel differently if a production shooter loaded 12 rounds in his barney mag, or loaded the remaining mags on his belt to 11?  I can think of stages where I would have loved to have had an extra round....

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Is it a bit harsh to shoot for no score if you chrono 124.9?  Or to get bumped to Open if your 140mm Limited mag just barely doesn't fit the gauge, but still doesn't hold any more rounds than one that does?  Or get bumped to Open if your Production gun is .1oz over weight?  I could go on.  I think the rules makes sense as written for all of this.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:39 PM, PatJones said:

I never load any mag with more than 10. I make ready with 2 magazines just like other divisions.

I do the same.  Put a round in the chamber with 4th mag in production, then replace that with 5th mag.  Never have a mag with more than 10 so bad thing can't happen. 

As for "harsh," maybe.  That translates into serious incentive to comply with the rules.

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I think the rule is very harsh and a procedural makes a whole lot more sense. Good r.o.'s are counting shots and a deliberate cheater is going to be sharp enough to know that he is a lot more likely to get busted than to gain an advantage on the table start. Even if a cheater somewhere did sneak by, this sport is supposed to be about having fun so it is worth weighing the priorities between some person somewhere gaining an advantage that probably will not make any difference at the end of the day, and peeing all over some new guys post toasties. 

There is a rational that after the new guy gets bitch slapped he/she will remember it, but I can see no benefit to the sport from bitch slapping new shooters with 'gotcha' technicalities. 

When I see gotcha baloney I try to make sure that any newer shooters on my squad are warned about it. 

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I'm constantly reading people's opinions that the rulebook is already too thick and full of minutiae.  The "bump to Open" is one rule that covers anyone in any Division for not complying with the rules.  What some are suggesting would be to make a different rule for over capacity on an unloaded start in a capacity-restricted Division.  Where does that road end?  What about over capacity on additional mags?  On normal starts?  And is the rule for 1 over the same as 7 over?  You'd also have people calling for alternative penalties for other things like slightly over-length mags, slightly under-powered ammo, slightly over-sized guns, etc.  The way it is works with one simple, all-encompassing rule.

Is it a technicality?  Yes.  But it's also part of learning the sport.  The shooter who violates it isn't being DQ'd.  They can still finish the match.  And if you are new enough to not know this rule, how much is it really going to crush you that you got bumped to Open?  There's no new car on the prize table.  When I'm on a squad with people I know are new or new-ish, and we approach an unloaded start stage, I remind those shooting 10-round Divisions to beware of that 11th round before we get started.  It's a simple, friendly thing to help new shooters learn the rules.

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20 minutes ago, JAFO said:

I'm constantly reading people's opinions that the rulebook is already too thick and full of minutiae.  The "bump to Open" is one rule that covers anyone in any All but one Division for not complying with the rules.  What some are suggesting would be to make a different rule for over capacity on an unloaded start in a capacity-restricted Division.  Where does that road end?  What about over capacity on additional mags?  On normal starts?  And is the rule for 1 over the same as 7 over?  You'd also have people calling for alternative penalties for other things like slightly over-length mags, slightly under-powered ammo, slightly over-sized guns, etc.  The way it is works with one simple, all-encompassing rule.

Is it a technicality?  Yes.  But it's also part of learning the sport.  The shooter who violates it isn't being DQ'd.  They can still finish the match.  And if you are new enough to not know this rule, how much is it really going to crush you that you got bumped to Open?  There's no new car on the prize table.  When I'm on a squad with people I know are new or new-ish, and we approach an unloaded start stage, I remind those shooting 10-round Divisions to beware of that 11th round before we get started.  It's a simple, friendly thing to help new shooters learn the rules.

Being an open shooter who faces "no score" for equipment violations, I always thought that all division should have the same "opportunity".  So, I guess it puts me in the not harsh enough category. ;)  Then there's this:

28F6712B00000578-0-image-a-77_1432265269

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time...

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if you don't make power factor in Minor, you shoot for no score.

if your magazines or even 1 of them is too long on open, you shoot for no score.

if your holster is out of compliance,,either too low or too far, you Zero the stage.

There are a lot of ways to screw up a match, following the rules is not hard.

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