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School Me on Recoil Springs


Heyman2

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I keep reading conflicted schools of thoughts on different recoil spring weights and what a lighter spring does as opposed to a heavier spring. I've noticed lately that my front sight is not coming back down to the target as fast as I would like. Would I be correct in assuming a lighter spring will bring the front sight back down quicker? Please educate me.

I'm running a M&P9 Pro with a gunsmith fit Apex barrel that is fit tight with the stock recoil spring assembly. So I obviously need to think about whether a different spring would start causing cycling issues. I am

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20 hours ago, Heyman2 said:

I keep reading conflicted schools of thoughts on different recoil spring weights and what a lighter spring does as opposed to a heavier spring. I've noticed lately that my front sight is not coming back down to the target as fast as I would like. Would I be correct in assuming a lighter spring will bring the front sight back down quicker? Please educate me.

I'm running a M&P9 Pro with a gunsmith fit Apex barrel that is fit tight with the stock recoil spring assembly. So I obviously need to think about whether a different spring would start causing cycling issues. I am

I'm not a gunsmith or anything, but I have dabbled with different spring and load combinations with the Apex Gunsmith fit barrel. One of the first videos I watched regarding this was posted by NicTaylor00 on youtube. You'll see some high-speed (600fps) footage of the different combinations starting around the 3 minute mark.

Hope that helps a bit.

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1 hour ago, Rez805 said:

I'm not a gunsmith or anything, but I have dabbled with different spring and load combinations with the Apex Gunsmith fit barrel. One of the first videos I watched regarding this was posted by NicTaylor00 on youtube. You'll see some high-speed (600fps) footage of the different combinations starting around the 3 minute mark.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thank you sir. I actually did come across this video last night. If I may ask, what springs did you use with your gunsmith fit barrel and did you have any cycling issues? Do you have any other apex parts as well? I should've mentioned yesterday, I also have Apex's lighter striker spring and sear spring.

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Okay, I'm not super up-to-speed on this forum software.

 

Pretty much Apex everything. I did run into light strikes with the competition striker spring kit. Switched it to stock and I can't think of any light strikes that have occurred.

I listed some combinations that I have tried in a recent thread in this section. 

I can only speak to my 7 months of running this barrel (I'd say that 5k-6k rounds to date would be a fair guess). Here are some combinations that I have tried:

11lb with 100-105pf Steel Challenge handloads (105 grain Bayou. I also ran about 100 of the 95 grain bayou) = No problems. Even running all 8 stages twice in one day on a monthly basis.

11lb with ~130pf handloads (147 Grain Bayou) = Works, but I don't feel comfortable with this combo. Could end up wrecking the frame. In fact, I might have already wrecked it. I'm fairly certain that the sear housing block is NOT supposed to elevate from the frame when you pull the trigger hard. I'm sincerely hoping it's just the block or the roll pin. I don't relish the prospect of having to shell out ~$800 for what is truly a $400-500 gun in any other state.

13lb with 100-105pf Steel Challenge handloads (105 grain Bayou) = Rarely enough energy to properly function. 15lb with 100pf . . . it feels like (what I imagine) a non-recoiling prop gun feels like--the slide opened a tiny bit, but the case didn't fly out. Only made that mistake once.

13lb with ~130pf handloads (147 Grain Bayou) = No problems.

15lb with ~130pf handloads (147 Grain Bayou) = No problems. This actually feels great. I'm sticking with this setup

15lb with ~130pf handloads (124 Berrys Plated Flat Nose) = No problems.

15lb with ~131pf Atlanta Arms Select (124 grain @1060fps per their box) = No problems.

Match vid that kind of shows the setup I currently have:

USPSA Match with 15lb and 147 Bayous @~130PF

 

Here is where it get tricky. Have I experienced Failures to return to battery? Yes, but it's tough to say exactly what caused it. I used to never gauge my handloads, but when I started to get a few failures I ponied up the cash for a gauge. Now that I have removed the non-gauging rounds from my bag . . . no more failures to return to battery--even with the possibly damaged frame.

Edited by Rez805
clarity on wrecking my frame
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A 13lb ISMI spring on the stock guide rod is by far the most common weight for USPSA use in Production at 130PF.

To get the sights back down more quickly, grip the gun harder. You should be squeezing absolutely as hard as you can without shaking with the support hand while the strong hand is just loose enough not to clamp down on the trigger (trigger freeze) at speed.

Getting your weak hand grip up to par will greatly increase your ability to shoot fast: inside 7 yards you should be able to shoot A's as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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Thank you to both of you gentlemen for the wealth of info. I thought I was gripping with me support hand strong enough, but I'll see if I can grip it harder. I just always seem to be watching and waiting for the front sight to come back down, for what seems like forever.

ETA: Running a 13 lb spring shouldn't cause any damage to my frame shooting 130 PF, correct?

Edited by Heyman2
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No it should not. But shooting is an active process...

Within a year of shooting several times a week, you'll begin subconsciously driving the gun back down onto the target. If you watch a GM when his gun goes click, his muzzle dips.

Obviously that's not a flinch from someone who shoots like that.

"Driving the gun" means wrenching it back onto target as fast as possible, without tugging the gun down before the bullet leaves the barrel. 

This is the reason an experienced shooter can run his sights fast enough a novice thinks he's just throwing lead. And a novice might need a half second between shots to get the same quality hits. Just shoot your sights when they are visible in the A-zone. That process will speed up on its own as your eyes learn to see faster, as long as your grip does it's part.

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2 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

No it should not. But shooting is an active process...

Within a year of shooting several times a week, you'll begin subconsciously driving the gun back down onto the target. If you watch a GM when his gun goes click, his muzzle dips.

Obviously that's not a flinch from someone who shoots like that.

"Driving the gun" means wrenching it back onto target as fast as possible, without tugging the gun down before the bullet leaves the barrel. 

This is the reason an experienced shooter can run his sights fast enough a novice thinks he's just throwing lead. And a novice might need a half second between shots to get the same quality hits. Just shoot your sights when they are visible in the A-zone. That process will speed up on its own as your eyes learn to see faster, as long as your grip does it's part.

Funny you mention that. I saw a video by JJ Racaza, talking about that exact same thing. He talked about how there are two types of driving the gun down. One is mental, which happens prior to the shot being taken, and the other physical, which happens as soon as the shot goes off and the gun starts recoiling. Another question if I may. If I do decided to get a 13 lb ISMI spring, and run it with a non captured tungsten guide rod, will I meet the weight requirement to keep my pistol Production legal?

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I don't know. I just swapped springs on the factory rod - I am a strong fan of keeping things nearly stock and practicing like mad with the time and money that other guys spend tinkering nonstop.

(Every GM I've met has done sights minor trigger work springs and polishing, then just shot the gun nonstop while the C class guys keep buying widgets to try and get better and don't practice)

Hopefully someone else can chime in - otherwise find out how much the guide rod weighs and check the rule book to see how much weight you can get away with.

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4 hours ago, Heyman2 said:

Funny you mention that. I saw a video by JJ Racaza, talking about that exact same thing. He talked about how there are two types of driving the gun down. One is mental, which happens prior to the shot being taken, and the other physical, which happens as soon as the shot goes off and the gun starts recoiling. Another question if I may. If I do decided to get a 13 lb ISMI spring, and run it with a non captured tungsten guide rod, will I meet the weight requirement to keep my pistol Production legal?

If you are thinking about the Speed Shooters Specialties rod

Tungsten Non-Captured: 1.2 oz.

Tungsten Captured: 1.5 oz.

Stock: 0.917 oz (or 26 grams) WITH the stock spring.

I found the stock specs in a post from 8 years ago. Here's a link

I can't really speak to the math/physics that the poster lays out. I can't speak to the effectiveness of the tungsten rod either.

Per Appendix D4 of the Rulebook:

Maximum weight (for Production): Yes, 2 ounces with empty magazine inserted over weight listed on approved pistol list.

I've only been to one Level 2, but I don't recall them weighing my gun.

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/7/2016 at 8:36 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

A 13lb ISMI spring on the stock guide rod is by far the most common weight for USPSA use in Production at 130PF.

To get the sights back down more quickly, grip the gun harder. You should be squeezing absolutely as hard as you can without shaking with the support hand while the strong hand is just loose enough not to clamp down on the trigger (trigger freeze) at speed.

Getting your weak hand grip up to par will greatly increase your ability to shoot fast: inside 7 yards you should be able to shoot A's as fast as you can pull the trigger.

 

On 12/8/2016 at 11:42 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

I don't know. I just swapped springs on the factory rod - I am a strong fan of keeping things nearly stock and practicing like mad with the time and money that other guys spend tinkering nonstop.

(Every GM I've met has done sights minor trigger work springs and polishing, then just shot the gun nonstop while the C class guys keep buying widgets to try and get better and don't practice)

Hopefully someone else can chime in - otherwise find out how much the guide rod weighs and check the rule book to see how much weight you can get away with.

Just wanted to let ya know. I took your advice. I experimented with different grips and had an Ah-ha moment. I'm combining lessons I've learned from watching videos from Ron Avery and Bob Vogel. I've watched these videos before, but only recently did their words stick and become clear to me. My grip doesn't look all that different from before, except that it's higher now. So high that the slide is failing to lock back on the last shot because the grip is high and the pressure from my palm is pushing the slide stop in a downwards motion. I can deal with this though. I also realized that the position of my arms and the torquing in starts has to extend all the way from my hands, through my arms, to my shoulder. It's amazing to feel how different this grip feels and how sturdy everything is. I finally understand what it feels like to lock the gun in. I am getting more and more proficient at slapping the shit out of the trigger without moving the gun. I also realized, from Ron Avery, that grip strength and wrist tension are two different things. I think that statement was what made the light bulb go off in my head. Now, I just need enough repetitions so that this becomes automatic, and not something I have to think about. Thanks for your advice Memphis! 

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