Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

What do you do when you suck?


AlphaCharis

Recommended Posts

It's extremely difficult to give your own skills an objective accurate shakedown. It's very rare someone can do that to themselves while also possessing the experience and knowledge to know what to look for. It is very likely that there is a whole series of problems you have that you aren't even aware of yet. Let's ignore those though. The things you know you're bad at, do you know what it is specifically you are doing that is causing you to be bad at those things? Beyond that, do you know what actions you need to take to improve? "I need to work on my grip (draw, reload, etc)" is not useful information. You gotta have a plan of action for what you're working towards...gotta have direction. What specifically are you doing to make each of the skills you listed better? Just mindlessly doing reps isn't going to get you to the promised land. 

Here's a simple example. I've been working towards improving some consistency issues in my reload. When I really push, the mistake I've been making is bringing the gun a little too inside and too low which is causing me to miss most of the reloads that I miss on the far side of the magwell. I'm drilling keeping the gun an inch or two further away from me at the reload position to fix this. Now when I execute that plan of action I don't do it perfectly every time and you won't either. The goal becomes to know if you executed it correctly or incorrectly. If incorrect you need to then be able to know how it was incorrect so you can eliminate it in the future.

I have a decent amount of match footage on youtube. I make loads of mistakes in each and every one. I can tell you every mistake, why it was a mistake, how to fix it, and why that action will fix it. Those things mean I will tend to get much more out of my practice than people that can't answer those questions.

Just general gun handling without a plan is a good thing to do IF you're reinforcing good habits. This is how I do most of my dryfire. If you aren't reinforcing good habits you're going to end up devoting even more time in the future to fixing the problems you create by burning in poor movement patterns.

Since having a coach tell you these things is currently not doable for you, the best solution I have for you is to become a student of the sport. Watch as many videos of top shooters as you can...study the crap out of them. Then compare every tiny little thing they do with video of yourself. Experiment with everything, record as much information as you can. Test it all on the timer. This is what I did, but it took many years. The best thing a coach brings to the table is radically shortening the learning curve.

Each and every technique problem a shooter has can be traced back to an error in that shooter's fundamentals. If you ever get to a point where you don't know what to work on, just start back over at the beginning. Do the common stuff uncommonly well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 52
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

You are missing the point of an effective class. Sure a class does point out the skills that you need to fix, but it should also give you specific steps on resolving those issues. Figuring out how to prioritize what you need to fix is also an important skills that an effective trainer should be able to help you figure out.

Lastly, you need to scrap the thought of there being skills "Beyond the basics". All of the skills we leverage to compete in the practical shooting sports are "basic" skills. The better shooters simply deploy the "Basic" skills in a more efficient and effective manner.

this is so true. anyone can show you but a teacher can give you the tools to improve

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Brian says in his book: Practice does NOT make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

If you keep repeating something that is detrimental, then the detrimental thing is what you learn.

You need to have an idea of a good way to do things, and work towards that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do agree with a lot of what is said. Classes and coaching from top shooters is a very good step. You can cut the learning curve tremendously. However, I would also be concerned about it being information overload. As with most things in life, consistency is key. Of course it isn't good to train bad habits, but we all go through a process of refining our techniques. Jake had a great example of that in his own reloads.

Set a goal for a technique that is very reachable. 25 reloads without a single miss or bobble in 1.25-1.5 seconds. Take video and analyze where you can increase speed. Maybe it's getting your off hand to the mag quicker, or reducing head/shoulder/arm movement. But you have to study yourself to see what you think needs to improve. Then compare what you are doing to a GM shooter. Put the video side by side and analyze again. At that point you'll probably notice that there are a lot of things that need to change, and that's ok. Only make one change to your technique at a time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Practice,Practice,Practice. Read and use of the books that are written by GM's. I like Perfect Practice by Saul Kirsch. Mike Seeklander has some great stuff also.

Try to shoot with shooter that are better than you every chance you get.

Remember that "Practice makes Permanent" so do it perfect.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/17/2017 at 6:41 AM, alotur said:

So how is the Ron Avery class?  I see and incorporate a lot of his techniques into my training and he seems like he would be an awesome instructor.  

It was good!  He helped refine grip and not only told you how to hold it for a better grip, but showed you how it was better.  He went over the draw, too.  Even GM shooters got something out of the grip and draw segment.  He had some drills that helped with shot calling, shooting faster/accurate.  It was a 2-day class, but having a 3rd day would have been awesome to have some more time shooting on the move, entry/exit stuff.  I really wished I had taken notes after each day so I could remember the drills to do at home.  It's really after you go home and have all that information sink in, and then get to practicing that it will really help make a difference in your shooting.  I would like to get back to another class, and definitely take notes next time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/14/2017 at 3:20 AM, dcalvert said:

Practice,Practice,Practice. Read and use of the books that are written by GM's. I like Perfect Practice by Saul Kirsch. Mike Seeklander has some great stuff also.

Try to shoot with shooter that are better than you every chance you get.

Remember that "Practice makes Permanent" so do it perfect.

 

 

Just after the first of the year, after my horrible match, I started dryfiring daily. I have Stoeger's dryfire and lifefire practice books, and I like Bassham's book for the "mental management."  I shoot with a few Master class regulary, and they usualy have some good critique for me in how to improve.  I count on them to let me know what to do better lol.  Yes, I definitely don't want to be practicing the wrong thing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/13/2017 at 8:29 AM, Limitless13 said:

I do agree with a lot of what is said. Classes and coaching from top shooters is a very good step. You can cut the learning curve tremendously. However, I would also be concerned about it being information overload. As with most things in life, consistency is key. Of course it isn't good to train bad habits, but we all go through a process of refining our techniques. Jake had a great example of that in his own reloads.

Set a goal for a technique that is very reachable. 25 reloads without a single miss or bobble in 1.25-1.5 seconds. Take video and analyze where you can increase speed. Maybe it's getting your off hand to the mag quicker, or reducing head/shoulder/arm movement. But you have to study yourself to see what you think needs to improve. Then compare what you are doing to a GM shooter. Put the video side by side and analyze again. At that point you'll probably notice that there are a lot of things that need to change, and that's ok. Only make one change to your technique at a time.

I have so many things I need to improve lol, it did feel overwhelming.  I think video will be very helpful.  I've kinda did that the past few days with my reloads, and then a friend sent me a link so I could watch Grauffel's reloads, and I also watched Stoeger's reloads - stationary and during matches.  As I practiced I started to notice little things that I could change, and reasons why I always screwed up my reload, and then started to focus on changing how I did those things.  I'm still trying to find the best place to hold it out front, like in front of my face more, or dropped down a bit.  Tonight's practice, I was holding it a little higher than last nights, and was angled a little differently and I messed up way less.  My grip out of the holster improved a ton tonight - it felt the same almost every time.  

I noticed in my video from last night, that I was moving my arm a lot, I do have to flip my gun to reach the mag release, but tonight it seemed easier to reach and didn't have to move my hand off my grip as much, and there was much less movement in my arm.  I also felt like I was extending my arms too much because my elbows started to hurt lol  I wish I had video taped tonight's because it felt like they went much smoother than last night's practice:  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/12/2017 at 3:54 PM, Jake Di Vita said:

.... If you ever get to a point where you don't know what to work on, just start back over at the beginning. Do the common stuff uncommonly well.

Since I have so much to work on I basically started at the beginning lol... I'm dryfiring good trigger presses - I liked the lightswitch idea, so have been shooting at that from across the living room during my warm up drills.  This week I've been working on my reload - my reload gives me the most grief, so I started with that.  Watched match footage, mostly of Groeffel and Stoeger.  Besides the things below that I put on my YouTube video from my reload practice, I think I do better with holding the gun a bit higher than I was.  Also with tonight's practice, like I said in another response, I seemed to be hitting the mag release much better, didn't have to flip my gun nearly as much, and had much less movement in that arm.  Reloads seemed to be a lot smoother and way more consistent than last night's session. 

I've been concentrating on:
1. Consistent, good grip out of the holster
2. Getting my hand down to my mags faster
3. Getting a consistent grip on mag before I pull it out of the pouch... I'm struggling with this one. Trying to get the heel of my hand on the basepad each time, and my index finger down the side. Helps with getting it into the magwell
4. Looking at the magwell and getting a clean entry.  After a stage, sometimes I don't even remember looking at my magwell, but I must be.  Anyway, in dryfire I'm making it a point to.

5. Regaining a tight grip back on gun - this one has been hard and very inconsistent. A lot of times it's crooked, not high enough, and too loose. 

I think I need to bend my arms a little more, I think I am extending too far - my elbows starting hurting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, AlphaCharis said:

It was good!  He helped refine grip and not only told you how to hold it for a better grip, but showed you how it was better.  He went over the draw, too.  Even GM shooters got something out of the grip and draw segment.  He had some drills that helped with shot calling, shooting faster/accurate.  It was a 2-day class, but having a 3rd day would have been awesome to have some more time shooting on the move, entry/exit stuff.  I really wished I had taken notes after each day so I could remember the drills to do at home.  It's really after you go home and have all that information sink in, and then get to practicing that it will really help make a difference in your shooting.  I would like to get back to another class, and definitely take notes next time. 

 

I think I am going to try and make the March class.  I have been to Anderson years ago, but I was not at a level where I could understand what he was saying.  I did Bob Vogels course recently and it was very helpful and showed me that I had some ability in this game and showed me what to do.  He is truly an awesome shooter par none.  Ron Avery appears to focus on the details and addresses the mental and technical side of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AlphaCharis> Nice solid gun handling work in the video. The one thing that I really like is that you are keeping your head still and only moving your eyes down to look the magazine into the magwell. The less body parts you move around during gun handling the better as it increases the efficiency of the process. When I was working hard on optimizing my reloads the thing that was the hardest to figure out was the parking place for the gun to receive the new magazine. The support hand speed down to the mag and back up to the gun really changes the timing and location of where the gun's parking place needs to be. Basically, the faster your support hand movement gets the less displaced the gun can be to meet the new magazine. If you are using an aggressive slapping hand speed to get the mag and bring it back up there isn't much time at all to displace the gun so less displacement movement is better. By the time I optimized my aggressive support hand slapping movement I barely had time to bring the gun back to the parking place to receive the new magazine. For my reload the parking place is to keep the gun at the same vertical height as the firing position (Magwell at about chin/neck height) as I bring the gun back slightly then point the magwell towards the receiving magazine. 

Figuring out hot to improve the efficiency of gun handling tasks usually works better when you approach the logic from an opposite angle. For example, If I have time to bring the gun down to my chest or stomach then I am wasting time in getting the next magazine off my belt and up to the gun. If your support hand is working at its maximum potential then there shouldn't be any extra "Time" to displace the gun to an inefficient magazine recieving location. There should only be enough time to displace the gun to the optimal magazine receiving location. The same could be said for the draw. If your support hand has time to move across your body to receive the gun and be "Waiting" for the gun to come out of the holster then you don't have aggressive enough strong hand speed to the gun and getting the gun out of the holster.    

Here are some examples of the aggressive magazine slapping motion needed and gun displacement that I am talking about....

Full Speed Video

Slow Motion Video

 

Edited by CHA-LEE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

AlphaCharis> Nice solid gun handling work in the video. The one thing that I really like is that you are keeping your head still and only moving your eyes down to look the magazine into the magwell. The less body parts you move around during gun handling the better as it increases the efficiency of the process.

Oh, thank you!  I know I have a long ways to go, but I'm happy to see some improvement.  

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

AlphaCharis> When I was working hard on optimizing my reloads the thing that was the hardest to figure out was the parking place for the gun to receive the new magazine. The support hand speed down to the mag and back up to the gun really changes the timing and location of where the gun's parking place needs to be. Basically, the faster your support hand movement gets the less displaced the gun can be to meet the new magazine. If you are using an aggressive slapping hand speed to get the mag and bring it back up there isn't much time at all to displace the gun so less displacement movement is better. By the time I optimized my aggressive support hand slapping movement I barely had time to bring the gun back to the parking place to receive the new magazine. For my reload the parking place is to keep the gun at the same vertical height as the firing position (Magwell at about chin/neck height) as I bring the gun back slightly then point the magwell towards the receiving magazine. 

Figuring out hot to improve the efficiency of gun handling tasks usually works better when you approach the logic from an opposite angle. For example, If I have time to bring the gun down to my chest or stomach then I am wasting time in getting the next magazine off my belt and up to the gun. If your support hand is working at its maximum potential then there shouldn't be any extra "Time" to displace the gun to an inefficient magazine recieving location. There should only be enough time to displace the gun to the optimal magazine receiving location. The same could be said for the draw. If your support hand has time to move across your body to receive the gun and be "Waiting" for the gun to come out of the holster then you don't have aggressive enough strong hand speed to the gun and getting the gun out of the holster.    

Here are some examples of the aggressive magazine slapping motion needed and gun displacement that I am talking about....

Ah!  That makes sense!  Maybe that's why last night's practice went better than the one videoed.  The night I videoed I felt like I was only getting the right placement on my mag before pulling it out a quarter of the time.  It was almost guaranteed that if I didn't pull it right, I was going to screw up the reload.  I hit the side of the magwell more times than not.  But last night, I was really focusing on my grip for everything and was pulling mags out a lot more consistently.  I must have been faster at slapping it out because it felt like my gun was moving less, was a little higher in front of my face, and allowed for easier entry of my mag.  I had way more successful reloads last night.  I will try and videotape again so I can see if my magazine slapping has gotten any more aggressive and have overall improved, and to see where I'm "parking" my gun.  I will really concentrate on being more aggressive in getting my magazine out.  Last week I was trying to move really fast and whacked my palm so hard on my mag I could hardly concentrate because it continued to hurt.  After about 3 sets of draws and reloads later, I ended up "throwing" my gun right out of my holster, for my first dropped gun ever.  I figured that was a good time to go to bed. 

Thank you so much for your comments!  I'm looking forward to minimizing all my wasted movements! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The aggressive "Slapping" motion of the support hand can hurt your hand and fingers, but that is what it takes to maximize the movement. When I am training reloads if I do more than 20 of them my fingers and palm hurt and some times get bruised due to the force of slapping down at them aggressively.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The aggressive "Slapping" motion of the support hand can hurt your hand and fingers, but that is what it takes to maximize the movement. When I am training reloads if I do more than 20 of them my fingers and palm hurt and some times get bruised due to the force of slapping down at them aggressively.

Haha great ;) now both hands can hurt lol  

My right hand the left side of my palm hurts and is growing a callous (maybe then it will hurt less), the left side of my knuckle on my middle finger where it rubs under the trigger guard has a blister and a growing callous, and the skin on the back of my ring finger is rubbing off from my support hand gripping it.  I'm thinking of just wrapping some medical tape around those two fingers for dryfire, but wondering if the tape would just get in the way and lessen the chance of it developing a callous?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, alotur said:

I think I am going to try and make the March class.  ...  Ron Avery appears to focus on the details and addresses the mental and technical side of the game.

I would strongly recommend it. I am on the waiting list for Area 2, if I don't make it in I will be there as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Notto compare apples to oranges how would you guys compare Ron Avery to Rob Latham.   This is not who is better but approach to teaching.  I have taken classes with a few national ballers and they tending to be on the do what you see side of the fence as opposed to analytical analysis of techniques.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AlphaCharis said:

Haha great ;) now both hands can hurt lol  

My right hand the left side of my palm hurts and is growing a callous (maybe then it will hurt less), the left side of my knuckle on my middle finger where it rubs under the trigger guard has a blister and a growing callous, and the skin on the back of my ring finger is rubbing off from my support hand gripping it.  I'm thinking of just wrapping some medical tape around those two fingers for dryfire, but wondering if the tape would just get in the way and lessen the chance of it developing a callous?

Yeah your hands are going to get callused up, that's a good thing. Your hands with toughen up over time. Feel free to use some athletic tape. I go back and forth on it as I feel is reduces the amount of friction I can generate but it also helps to prevent ripping the callus off which is just about as fun as it sounds. See how it works for you. Either way it will get better as your hands toughen up.

 

1 hour ago, alotur said:

Notto compare apples to oranges how would you guys compare Ron Avery to Rob Latham.   This is not who is better but approach to teaching.  I have taken classes with a few national ballers and they tending to be on the do what you see side of the fence as opposed to analytical analysis of techniques.

I haven't been taught by either of them and I can't speak to the totality of their teaching methods because I don't know. I'm sure both of them have valuable bits of information to give. That being said, when I hear that Ron teaches to "just let recoil happen" it makes warning bells in my head go off like crazy. Rob and I have had our differences in the past but I'd take a class from him...I personally wouldn't take a class from Ron as I've read his opinion on a number of shooting related subjects and I think he uses questionable logic when coming to some of his conclusions. Just my opinion, some people on here love him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

IF I SUCK, I study someone who doesn't suck. So I can learn how to shoot like them.

I find the BEST IPSC or USPSA shooter on earth and watch their videos. I also figure out how they train and I try to do them in my practice.

IF I DON'T SUCK, I still study the world best shooters and try to get some tips out.

One of the world best IPSC shooter happens to be Eric Grauffel.

 

IF I WANT TO BE GOOD IN A HURRY, I study top shooters who grew REALLY quickly. Not the ones that started shooting since they are 3 yrs old or something.

One of that guy happens to be Ben Stoeger. He didn't grow up playing sports or shooting competitions. 

 

IF YOU WANT ALL THE VIDEOS OF THE BEST SHOOTERS, I would suggest you contact me. I have over 300GB of them.

Edited by hwansikcjswo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is where the nuance comes in.  When I took Anderson's class I was too new to the game to understand what he was saying.  I have taken classes with Garcia and Vogel and they are artists with a gun, but the brief nature of the classes did not allow for more nuance.  I will make a call one way or another, but who else it out there that can delve into the practical in a multi-day course?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is starting to become a slight thread drift but I will offer my opinion on the subject of trainers. The top flight trainers I have attended classes from are Manny Bragg, Ron Avery, and Bob Vogel. I have also attended training classes from lesser known trainers that also had excellent classes. I don't think its valid to say that one guys class is "Better" or "Worse" than another as they each have their own style and flavor of teaching. As a student you also have your own unique way of learning. Some students learn better by seeing trainers perform demos of skills and other students learn better with analytical discussion about skills. I am an analytical learner and need to know "Why" a skill should be performed in a certain way. Its not that I want to know the "Why" so I can judge the process before trying it. Knowing the "Why" is required so I can fully understand and deploy every aspect of it. Both Manny Bragg and Ron Avery are Analytical discussion style trainers. They both can take a deep analytical dive into whatever skill you are having issues with and pick it apart one aspect at a time all the while explaining the "Why" to the process. I learn best with the Analytical style so I bias my training to the trainers that present the content in that way. When I perform training myself, my training style is Analytical as well.

The confusing moral of the story is that in order to Learn, you must first Learn how YOU Learn. Once you know that you can seek out the trainers that have a training style that best suits your learning style.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...