Let's discuss fast reloads

[motosapiens]

On 4/26/2017 at 11:06 AM, mlmiller1 said:

  Reloading & moving?  Complete your reload before you get more than a step away from the shooting position, then haul to next shooting position.  Dont try to reload "on the way".   If your dropped mag isnt near your first shooting position, you reloaded on the move.  Not usually very effective.

 

why do you believe this? Have you timed it for yourself? for others?

 

when i was a new shooter, ben stoeger advised me to spend *less* time screwing around with the reload, and just get moving, then worry about the reload on the way. maybe that just meant my reloads were super slow at the time....

 

I shoot SS mostly, so I spend a fair amount of time on reloads, both standing still and moving a few steps and moving a bunch, and in all different directions.  for sure, the mag should come out as soon as you are done shooting, but there's no particular reason to try to get the reload done in the first step unless the timer tells you that's the fastest way for a particular situation. My testing has shown that if there are more than a few steps, it doesn't make a measurable difference whether I put a priority on the reload and get it done in the first step, or whether i put a priority on moving, and don't get the mag seated for another 10 yards. The important part is that the gun is reloaded several steps before the next position so I can start aiming early.

[motosapiens]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:58 AM, leemoe83 said:

The majority of shooters have poor movement when a reload is required.

 

If this is true, would you recommend trying to reload faster? or learning to move better while reloading?  (or both, lol).

 

I seem to have the exact same time between positions whether I reload or not.

[Jake Di Vita]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

why do you believe this? Have you timed it for yourself? for others?

 

As with everything else, it depends. Something important to note is that this primarily applies to positions that you would use a drop step (aka split step) to leave the position which in general is a very difficult shot or a position where your balance is heavily shifted to one side at the end of the array.

 

I think the reload is a pretty fine motor function skill. Even with a magwell shooting double stacked mags the margin for error between a successful reload and a miss is not that much. The tip of the magazine has to hit wholly within about a 2x2 inch square. When I'm running at full speed it's a lot more difficult to consistently hit that 2x2 inch area. I flubb way more mag changes when I'm running than when I'm mostly stationary. I've tested this extensively with myself and others. The majority of the time, the reload suffers when done at a full run. The way a lot of people avoid this is slower/smoother movement. Since I'd really prefer to not slow my running speed down, that means I need to either reload at the beginning or the end of movement. I don't want to reload at the end of my movement because if anything goes awry I'm burning time hard by standing still and fiddling with my gun. That leaves reloading at the beginning of movement. When executed well, the entire reload can be completed before the completion of your drop step.

 

If we're talking short distance movement where you can't really get moving fast, or when I leave a position that I don't need to drop step from, I'm all for reloading on the move. I still want to always complete the reload as early as I can though just so I can correct any goofs to make sure I'm ready to shoot when I get to the next position. I'll always try to get the reload done in one step of movement.

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

My testing has shown that if there are more than a few steps, it doesn't make a measurable difference whether I put a priority on the reload and get it done in the first step, or whether i put a priority on moving, and don't get the mag seated for another 10 yards.

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I seem to have the exact same time between positions whether I reload or not.

 

It's possible you're just not running hard enough. If I'm not moving very fast when I don't reload I wouldn't notice much of a difference adding a reload in either. If you're moving at what is your legitimate top speed and still don't see a difference, that's great. For me though, there's a difference. I'm measurably consistently at least a couple tenths slower when covering 10 yards between reloading and not reloading. Add another .1 - .3 if I'm trying to reload at a gallop.

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

As with everything else, it depends. Something important to note is that this primarily applies to positions that you would use a drop step (aka split step) to leave the position which in general is a very difficult shot or a position where your balance is heavily shifted to one side at the end of the array.

<snip>

 

 

It's possible you're just not running hard enough. If I'm not moving very fast when I don't reload I wouldn't notice much of a difference adding a reload in either. If you're moving at what is your legitimate top speed and still don't see a difference, that's great. For me though, there's a difference. I'm measurably consistently at least a couple tenths slower when covering 10 yards between reloading and not reloading. Add another .1 - .3 if I'm trying to reload at a gallop.

 

some excellent points here, i think the most important is to measure yourself and not take someone else's word for it.  I don't really have much trouble doing stuff at a full run (side effect of a lifetime of competitive running sports), but obviously many people do.

[mlmiller1]

When youre running, do you want to be watching the mag into the gun or do you want to be looking at where youre running?  When youre reloading do you want to be looking at your next shooting position or do you want to be watching the mag go in the gun?  I say its VERY hard to do both very well at the same time.  If you arent watching the mag into the gun, well I guess this discussion is moot.  Lol.

For me, if I dump the mag, take off running with new mag in my hand, its very hard for me to stop the natural arm movement that happens when I run long enough to get the mag & the gun "together".   If I am trying to reload at speed, I look something along the lines of the proverbial monkey trying to mate with a football.  Hahaha.  I cant dance either so lets say you might consider finishing your reload before you get very far.  For many people, that is faster.   YMMV.

[Ssanders224]

I'm re-posting from a short discussion on FB.

My original response to the same question over there:  

"All good info.... start and finish the reload as soon as possible, however I see too many people hesitate their leave from a position because they think they HAVE to finish their reload in the first step. 
Different positions and situations call for different approaches, but my general rule is GET GONE. I'm usually not going to slow my leave so that I can finish a reload. 
If I'm leaving hard, the reload isn't going to happen in the first step. 

It's not a perfect science. Leave as quickly as possible, and reload as quickly as possible. The two have to happen in tandem."

 

The rest of the comments/vids:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/31472669314/permalink/10154721111109315/?comment_id=10154721172429315

[Glock26Toter]

Jake hit the nail on the head with all the reload vs movement stuff.  Summed up nicely with the "just get it done ASAP" that Ssanders brought up.  I mean it's not a concrete, zero tolerance thing.  

 

I think the initial portion of the reload is the most important to get done quickly.  That's the act of releasing the mag, while simultaneously snatching the new mag up into position.  If you can get that done during the initial leave, then the rest can suffer a bit if the leave was very strong and you have a ways to go.   That motion is the most important to practice and get right.  And the way to do that is try to keep it as consistent as possible.  And it's most consistent while in the initial step out of a position. (or standing still, but don't do that.)  The main point is, while running things get pretty shaky if you're still reaching down for a mag. So even if the reload isn't complete in the first step the top shooters will almost certainly have the first part done before step 2.     

 

That said, I personally have gained a bunch by performing "partial insertion" drills.  That's the act of just doing that first portion of the reload.  You can do it with the same "shrinking par time" that was laid out by an earlier post.  But just do the mag drop, grab new mag, and align it to just past the mag well rim.  Don't do the full insertion or grip rebuild.  

 

This does a good job at practicing the part of the reload that's the most time costly and has the highest risk.  It also reinforces the act of looking the mag in and watching the alignment.  Kind of like "get ready - pause to make sure it's all good - GO!"  

 

Trust me, the pause will go away at match time.  Or if it stays there, it will very brief and ensure a more consistent reload. 

[tanks]

On 5/3/2017 at 7:22 AM, motosapiens said:

 

some excellent points here, i think the most important is to measure yourself and not take someone else's word for it.  I don't really have much trouble doing stuff at a full run (side effect of a lifetime of competitive running sports), but obviously many people do.

 

Try running with hands up (like as one is reloading) and running with the explosive hand swinging with a bent elbow (a la sprint runners) from the support side. My tests have shown me a significant difference in run speed.

[fastluck13]

I think there isn't a right answer.

 

Like aiming, the circumstance will dictate. Moving on the 180 right to left (righty). Short movements. Long movements. Retreat. Around corners.

 

You have to know what to do in each circumstance. To make my point, go to youtube and look up single stack nationals videos. Stick with the guys who can win. Robbie, Nils, Dave, etc. See how different each reload is. Some are done in a step. Others as they enter the next position.

 

The important thing is to get moving. The reload will be there.

[mlmiller1]

No one has explained yet how to watch the mag going into the gun while moving into the next shooting position & seeing the spot where youre needing to land all at the same time or how to really sprint between positions while bringing the gun & the mag together up in front of you.  

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

No one has explained yet how to watch the mag going into the gun while moving into the next shooting position & seeing the spot where youre needing to land all at the same time or how to really sprint between positions while bringing the gun & the mag together up in front of you.  

 

This is one reason why I like to get the reload done as early in movement as possible. That way my eyes are free to look at the spot my lead foot is going to land. Usually I look at that spot until I'm about 3 steps out, then I shift my eyes to finding the target and trust my feet to operate on auto pilot.

 

As far as really sprinting between positions, again I think doing this effectively depends on getting the reload done ideally within the first step of movement. Ultimately the only thing that matters is how quick you are able to shoot when you reach the new position. Someone who is full out sprinting but lacks the ability to enter into position and shoot effectively can still lose to someone that doesn't run very fast but gets there ready.

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

No one has explained yet how to watch the mag going into the gun while moving into the next shooting position & seeing the spot where youre needing to land all at the same time or how to really sprint between positions while bringing the gun & the mag together up in front of you.  

 

do it quickly, so you aren't running 5 steps while looking at the magwell. As jake astutely notes, this is a good reason to get the reload done ASAP if the movement is a short one, because it's the reload that will be delaying your return to shooting, not the movement. OTOH, on a long movement, it will be the moving that delays you from the next shots, so run like hell and reload before you get there. We just did a big SS-only match yesterday that had numerous 20-30 yard movements. Plenty of time to finish the reload before you get to the next position.

5 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

Someone who is full out sprinting but lacks the ability to enter into position and shoot effectively can still lose to someone that doesn't run very fast but gets there ready.

it's funny you mention that, because even with all the long movements yesterday, and even with my track and soccer background, I was still losing to a GM that outweighs me by quite a bit. The takeaway is that top speed imho is not nearly as important as efficiency (leaving hard and shooting early on entries) and plain old shooting skill.

[Jake Di Vita]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it's funny you mention that, because even with all the long movements yesterday, and even with my track and soccer background, I was still losing to a GM that outweighs me by quite a bit. The takeaway is that top speed imho is not nearly as important as efficiency (leaving hard and shooting early on entries) and plain old shooting skill.

 

The best example of this I think is TGO. He's not very fleet of foot, but he usually gains more than he loses in shooting when exiting and very early when entering. Obviously we want to have both, but as usual athleticism alone rarely beats skill. 

[buckyjames1]

Just re-read this post and compared my times from my original posts.

 

1.4sec now down to 1.1 (comfortable), 1.0 doable .90s rushed.

Biggest thing that got my speeds down were:

 

1. Finding out when I can perform fast movements: initial hand movement from sides or surrender TO gun...move as fast as possible.

                                                                                         gun draw from holster to target...move as fast as possible

 

2. As pistol is presented to target: take out any slack/stage the trigger

 

3. As soon as sights are on target: Take the shot. Don't slap the trigger, just give it the last lbs. to make it go boom.

 

Basically, break down your draw into 3 phases and get used to shooting from a timer. A drag racer gets used to taking off when red lights go to green. 

A shooter must get used to hearing and reacting to the timer's buzzer. 1/10th here...1/10th there does indeed to start to add up

[Blueknight749]

I saw a speed drill from Travis Tomasie on youtube when he's already drawing the mag from his pouch as he begins to hit the mag release.  at full speed, you'd think hes gonna hit the falling mag but he doesn't.

 

So I broke down my reload drill session to try and do what he does.  One of the things I immediately discovered is that my reload was largely based on my stage plan.  Once I realized that, I tried Travis' technique at "my" turtle speed and I made a significant improvement.  I believe the video was called Travis Tomasie- The Perfect Reload.

[GunBugBit]

Fast reloads come into play the more you’re doing them, such as when shooting SS on a high round count stage.

 

One reason I like Steel Challenge is because the work I put into better draw speed contributes substantially to every string I shoot.

 

Back to reload speed - Now that I’m shooting Limited, my less frequent reloads don’t separate me much from those who beat me and those whom I beat in the division.  On classifiers that require reloads, though, it’s worth having a fast reload.  

Maybe some day I’ll be shooting matches where it’s more of a factor.  That some day will be when I’m a retired Super Senior.  Not far off at all.

[maur]

1.2 in live fire isnt too bad, especially if its during a stage. Dryfire those burkett reloads. But honestly unless youre shooting lo cap there are many other areas to gain time in, instead of the .2 seconds youre losing in the rare occasion youre doing a standing reload.

For instance, make sure youre moving while reloading, not reloading and then moving. Or shave off .2 seconds on every single transition, which amounts to 2 seconds on a 20rd stage

[csailer]

Lots of good info here.  I will add. 

 

Technique is huge.  Where do your eyes go?  How do you twist/turn the gun?  Are your hands moving at the same time or step 1 step 2 type of steps.  How are you grabbing the mag?  What's the mag path.  How do you roll the gun back out?  Rob E and Max M have good videos on reloads.  Get the technique down, slo mo your runs and breaks them down......thenn do it until your hands bleed and get it down!!  you got this.  

[Riddle]

Slow is Fast and Fast is Slow, My 0.2

[FranzP]

Burkett reloads will 100% help this. 

 

[Twilk73]

Two tips that helped me. Keep the gun high so it’s faster to re present and it’s easier to see the magwell. Also orient the magazines so that you can get a good solid grip that doesn’t stress the wrist much. The straighter your wrist the faster you’ll draw the magazine. 

[Joe4d]

Need to make up some dummy rounds and moon clips,, I am fairly new to Icore and speed reloading revolvers. I am an accurate fast shooter. I am a slow mover, always have been.  Was pointed out to me, I should be doing more moving during reloads.. 
Alot more fine motor skills going on with a revolver, I tend to load then move.. 
Motosapiens brought up a good point though... Put it on a shot timer,, try it a couple different ways. WOuld be an easy drill to set up at my home range.. 
I did force myself to swithc to a weak hand reload,, while initially slower I think it has protentional to be faster in long run.

Far as auto loaders ? I was at Black water watching Todd Jarret shoot the breeze,, and he could be standng there talking to you making jokes not even looking at his gun and nailing reloads faster than his dropped mag hit the ground.

 

[Dr. Phil]

I was thinking, while reading through this thread, 'now try it with a revolver!' I have to decide which reload to use (strong hand or weak hand) depending on the direction I am running. (much the same with an auto) to keep from breaking the 180. 

I am working now on standing reloads with the revo. There is so much movement that is hard to be fast. Really fast.

I think cs's comments are spot on; break it down and do it till your hands bleed!

FWIW, with a revo, I try to dump the moon clip as soon as done firing and run like heck till about 2 steps from the next box and drop in the clip just before I stop to shoot, getting the gun up as I stop. Seems to be the fastest for me from my testing. Better that than tripping over my feet!

Of course, shooting against mostly autos it doesn't really matter, but it is nice to know...

Edited April 9 by Dr. Phil
bad writing

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

I was thinking, while reading through this thread, 'now try it with a revolver!' I have to decide which reload to use (strong hand or weak hand) depending on the direction I am running. (much the same with an auto) to keep from breaking the 180. 

I am working now on standing reloads with the revo. There is so much movement that is hard to be fast. Really fast.

I think cs's comments are spot on; break it down and do it till your hands bleed!

FWIW, with a revo, I try to dump the moon clip as soon as done firing and run like heck till about 2 steps from the next box and drop in the clip just before I stop to shoot, getting the gun up as I stop. Seems to be the fastest for me from my testing. Better that than tripping over my feet!

Of course, shooting against mostly autos it doesn't really matter, but it is nice to know...

I dunno, so then you are runnign with the cylinder flopping everywhere ? I dont see me ever doing much of a runnign reload with a revolver. Not as much movement in ICORE, 

[MikeyScuba]

Not much movement?