Let's discuss fast reloads

[GARD72977]

2 hours ago, ShortBus said:

Am I the only one who cringed watching the OP's video? Trigger finger on the trigger while putting mag back into pouch..

I watched the video a few more times. If that makes you cringe then you would really not like it in live fire. I'm usually breaking the shot as soon as my finger finds the trigger.

The gun is on target the mag is in the gun and I'm restablishing my grip as my finger come on the trigger. I'm going to keep practicing and shooting the same way.

[ShortBus]

I'm not talking about that dude. While you are trying to stuff your mag back in the pouch/fool with timer you keep your finger on the trigger. That's what I'm talking about, your not even looking where the gun is pointing. I just think it's a bad practice and if you are that casual about it in dry fire then you are just as casual about it in live fire. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by ShortBus

[ShortBus]

 

The fact that you re watched it specifically looking for trigger finger issues and found nothing is scary. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by ShortBus

[lancejoshlin]

Yep, at 20seconds in, could see it poking out the other side. Just something to be aware of, not bashing...

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

You literally just ignored what I said. A clean requires you to work on it as one unit (are we in agreement about terminology here? what you describe is a power clean, yes?). Once you have the bar in front squat position though, the jerk to get the bar above your head is completely distinct. You could work on the jerk completely independently of doing cleans. You could have the bar racked and just walk under it like you were gonna do front squats and then back up and do that action. 

I didn't ignore what you said at all, I think I'm not explaining myself correctly. When you do movements that are complex in nature doing the entire thing has a different effect on you than doing the individual parts. This is clearly seen in many areas of athletics. The only reason I brought the clean up is that it is much more complex than a reload so it's just an easy example to illustrate how practicing the whole thing is different than the pieces. Because the reload is comparatively simpler the problem isn't as apparent, but it's still there and it probably effects others worse than it effects you.

It appears to me like you're saying the steps in a reload are as different and distinct as a clean is from a jerk. I would say the difference in the clean and jerk is more analogous to a draw and reload as opposed to different steps inside a reload. In that case, practice of one doesn't require the other. But you can't practice a clean by deadlifting and front squatting just as I believe the same type of practice method is less than ideal for a reload. 

3 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Something like a clean, as you mention, is a single action. Something like a draw or reload is many smaller independent actions not reliant on the one that comes before it. It is more like a clean and jerk than a power clean/clean and squat.

 

2 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

And before you say a clean is 3 distinct pulls, why is a reload (which is also composed of multiple separate actions) any different? I would argue the key distinction is that each action is not entirely reliant on the prior step, as it is in a clean. 

I don't believe this is accurate. The first thing is the clean isn't a single action. It is a product of many smaller actions just like a reload. As I've said before, those actions when done fluidly in sequence apply a different stimulus than if done individually. You also say that each step in a draw and reload are independent of the steps that come before them. I just don't agree. I think every shooter has an individual ideal position for any action related to shooting that sets them up with the best chance to succeed. Getting out of position on an early step can cause problems a few steps down the line. One of the biggest issues with practicing individual movements is people (maybe not you) will often find themselves performing the action slightly differently when practiced individually as opposed to as a whole. When you try and put the whole thing together at full speed tiny differences add up fast. As you know, in Open GM small things can be the difference between winning and losing. I want to minimize the difference in mechanics as much as I possibly can. I know you probably don't think there's a difference, but we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

All that being said, I'm not telling you to change. Doing what you're doing has obviously worked for you. To me, what I'm describing is the most logical way to approach skill development based on my experience of coaching myself and others over the years. As always, do what you feel is best.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[GARD72977]

Yea I was watching the reloads. Having my finger on the trigger while I'm messing with stuff is a problem. It's different with a live gun. I clear it and holster before I do anything else.

 

[lancejoshlin]

[emoji106]

[fastluck13]

17 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

I dunno about that. There are frequently situations in stages where reloads need to be done within a step to not delay shooting. I see one or more of these situations in just about all the matches I shoot in Open. The number of times this is seen for Production is too frequent to ignore. Excluding that, I think it is generally best practice to finish the reload as early as you possibly can so you can focus all of your attention on the next task in your stage. The hard part of this is not delaying your movement for the reload. The only way I can get this done correctly is to smash the load as I accelerate out of position. To me, this is how real high level standing reload ability can transfer to reloading between shooting positions.

His reloads are strong enough to get him to any class he wants but there's nothing wrong with making a strength even stronger. Match performance in Production certainly requires a more developed reloading ability than any division except revolver. Because of that I think it's warranted to spend time here even if it isn't the lowest hanging of fruit.

I probably should have stated that better...

 

I think his current reload ability would only be a factor on standing reloads and even then it is pretty good. based only on the standing example. Now if it falls apart when moving, that would be something else completely practice-wise. You are right that hitting a 1 step reload will come up frequently but again, I think he could hit that as is. Almost all mental at this point.

 

I shoot mostly SS and can appreciate obsessing over reloads. That said, there is almost always something more productive to work on once you get down near a second.

[IHAVEGAS]

Take aways. B class. 

Whipping the weak hand down to the mag is a magical suggestion. Watching the mag drop is also good stuff I think but I do not see the immediate improvement. Strange that it seems like it will take a bit to burn both into memory as I catch myself not doing it during practice. 

I can classify better than I can run a field course, so 90% of my reload practice is going to be about reloading on the move. Not sure if this is best, advice to the contrary is welcome.

99% of my practice is going to be about getting the trigger finger to an index point on the slide, clearly visible that it is out of the trigger guard. Again, not sure if this is best, but I do not want muscle memory to put my finger on the trigger. 

Very useful thread. 

 

[Jake Di Vita]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Whipping the weak hand down to the mag is a magical suggestion. Watching the mag drop is also good stuff I think but I do not see the immediate improvement. Strange that it seems like it will take a bit to burn both into memory as I catch myself not doing it during practice. 

Yep, it takes a lot of work to make this stuff automatic. Not strange at all. Anything other than that would be strange.

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I can classify better than I can run a field course, so 90% of my reload practice is going to be about reloading on the move. Not sure if this is best, advice to the contrary is welcome.

I think that you can do 90% of your reload practice standing still. The difference between reloading while still and while leaving a position is minuscule to me. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet the difference of performance you have on field courses vs classifiers has to do with something other than reloading.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I can classify better than I can run a field course, so 90% of my reload practice is going to be about reloading on the move. Not sure if this is best, advice to the contrary is welcome.

It depends on your goal.

If you want to get out of B class then perfecting your standing load is where you want to invents your time. Exiting B is done by shooting classifiers.

If you want to be able to beat the other B class scrubs at major matches, then you want to figure out how to shoot medium and long courses better. Movements, entires and exits, and maybe cleaning up your moving loads some.

But as Jake said, moving and static loads have a very close relationship. My moving reloads hurt me... because I can't perform beyond a 1.48s standing 7-yard load with any consistency. I don't think static and sprinting are all that different. I've never seen someone who could crush .85-90 loads on classifiers with long-course reloads that weren't strong.

Edited December 6, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

The difference between reloading while still and while leaving a position is minuscule to me. 

Hmmm. Perhaps there is an evolution to this.

Learn to start moving without 'breaking' your arm mechanics, after that standing or moving is a very similar process.

Worst case for my reload blunders is when I want to move to my strong side. 

[MemphisMechanic]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Worst case for my reload blunders is when I want to move to my strong side. 

Are you sure about that?

Most righties want to load during left-to-right (moving toward strong side) lateral movement rather than the opposite way. As a lefty, I seek out stage plans that will let me load moving to my left over ones that require moving the way the righties want to do it.

Were you mistaken or can you explain the issue?

[IHAVEGAS]

27 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Are you sure about that?

Most righties want to load during left-to-right (moving toward strong side) lateral movement rather than the opposite way. As a lefty, I seek out stage plans that will let me load moving to my left over ones that require moving the way the righties want to do it.

Were you mistaken or can you explain the issue?

 Am with you on stage plans. I try to avoid reloading while moving to the weak side, but when it seems to create a significant advantage to do it that way I want to be able to do it well. 

Working on just the reloading/moving process in my basement, I have the most reload (read-hitting the magazine) failures when transitioning from facing downrange to strong side movement. Forward or backward movement seems pretty much the same as a stationary reload. Weak side movement feels unique but for some reason not problematic.

I suspect it might just be one of those things that will work itself out with sufficient practice. Whipping the arm to the magazine and watching the mag fall seems to help. 

[SCTaylor]

Are you dropping your gun when moving to the strong side? I've got that problem, doesn't bite me in any other direction. Seems to be an ingrained reaction, dropping the strong hand / pump my arm to get moving.

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

Are you dropping your gun when moving to the strong side? I've got that problem, doesn't bite me in any other direction. Seems to be an ingrained reaction, dropping the strong hand / pump my arm to get moving.

That may well be the right track. Not sure if it is not related more to my right hand sort of running away from my left as I turn (screwing up the gun/mag relationship). 

Need to get video I guess. 

[MemphisMechanic]

For whatever reason I find those the only moving loads that are easy to stick. Will try to describe what goes on for me as best I can with text (I'm a lefty but will use the right version of it)

Fire your last shot and rotate your entire body 90* to the side, rotating to face the direction you're about to run toward.

The strong arm swung around with your torso: the gun is up high in front of your face and naturally indexed in a very convenient position to feed a mag into. Maybe think of it as "running toward/into the magwell"

... Then stuff a mag into it and get going

I think the key is not to try to keep arm out in front of your body in the 12 o'clock position if you were staying square to the back of the berm, but to bring it around toward 2 or 3 o'clock when you break position and run. (Muzzle still indexed square downrange, obviously)

Edited December 6, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[Jake Di Vita]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Working on just the reloading/moving process in my basement, I have the most reload (read-hitting the magazine) failures when transitioning from facing downrange to strong side movement. Forward or backward movement seems pretty much the same as a stationary reload. Weak side movement feels unique but for some reason not problematic.

I'd have to see some video (preferably reps moving every direction) to see what is causing the problem when you move to your strong side.

26 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

For whatever reason I find those the only moving loads that are easy to stick. Will try to describe what goes on for me as best I can with text (I'm a lefty but will use the right version of it)

Fire your last shot and rotate your entire body 90* to the side, rotating to face the direction you're about to run toward.

The strong arm swung around with your torso: the gun is up high in front of your face and naturally indexed in a very convenient position to feed a mag into. Maybe think of it as "running toward/into the magwell"

... Then stuff a mag into it and get going

I think the key is not to try to keep arm out in front of your body in the 12 o'clock position if you were staying square to the back of the berm, but to bring it around toward 2 or 3 o'clock when you break position and run. (Muzzle still indexed square downrange, obviously)

I actually try to keep my entire torso mostly square to the backstop until the reload is completed. The reason I do that is so it makes no difference whether I'm moving left or right. If I'm executing it well the reload is done right about at the same time as my first step in the direction of where I want to go. This also helps keep the position of the gun and fresh mag during the load more consistent. My goal is to fire the final shot of a position and then smash the load at the same time as I start moving (during the drop-step of a hard exit).

[MemphisMechanic]

You're way more skilled than I, Jake. I suppose I adopted that because my load sucks and I haven't worked often and hard enough to fix it.

So I compensate by performing it in the way that least slows down 2.5 seconds worth of movement while tying to get the mag seated.  Hmm.

(Yet more motivation for learning to crush standing loads in dryfire. Along with making that last .80% I need for A class rather easy to achieve.)

Edited December 7, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

I actually try to keep my entire torso mostly square to the backstop until the reload is completed.

That is a total paradigm shift for me. Actually feels pretty good attempting to do this. 

Thought process before was - I've got this far to get this reload completed. 

[motosapiens]

this thread inspired to pump up my reload training a bit, and stop making excuses about why I can't go faster. I pretty much spend at least 5 mins or so on reloads every day. the advice to look for the magwell and the mag coming out of it was pretty helpful to me. I've also been spending some time reloading to a difficultish target (3/4" square of tape at 2 yards, to simulate a mini-popper at 10-12 yards, for example. Today I was doing Can you Count in dry fire in 3.2 seconds fairly regularly. that's about a .2 improvement over me previous consistent best.

 

[zhunter]

Tag for good info

[Gooldylocks]

Worked on some normal standing reloads before moving on to some movement drills last night (and my scoop draw, but that's a whole other story). I was clicking pretty good and had gotten down to a 0.7 par, so then when I moved on to the positional shooting/movement stuff I was doing well on the moving reloads. 

Moral of the story? If you have a fast standing reload, reloads while moving aren't a big deal.

On December 6, 2016 at 8:19 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

I've never seen someone who could crush .85-90 loads on classifiers with long-course reloads that weren't strong.

 

[Focker]

Very helpful thread.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

Moral of the story? If you have a fast standing reload, reloads while moving aren't a big deal.

With a magwell, or, it does not matter?