Let's discuss fast reloads

[Pistolpete9]

If those are your normal reloads and you can just speed up your weak hand movement a tiny bit, I'd say you're doing pretty good.  I feel like I reload pretty fast and you are pretty much on par with where I am (I have a cheater mag well too!!!!)  I'm assuming you're reloading with full weight mags.  If not, definitely don't cheat yourself.  Amazing how most people will practice with empty mags and assumes it's the same ( I did it for a couple years ).  

I want to eventually be able to get sub .9 on any standing reload ALL OF THE TIME!  To that end I practice some times at speeds that I know I cannot consistently get it right.  I often end the session with bruised hands and I beat the crap out of my magwell and magazines, but I get more and more right each time and it becomes easier and easier to move at that speed with precision.  Coupled with slower and extremely precise reloading, I'm getting there. 

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

In full disclosure I do not practice Burkett reloads and I know that I do not get the 1.5 hours of dry-fire in most weeks.

 

I think I found your problem.

[theWacoKid]

I want to second what some others have said.  Your weak hand movement is too slow to get these fast reload times you seek.  Slap that mag and snatch it out way quicker than you are doing.  It takes conscious effort to do this and after you continually force it it will become more and more automatic.  I struggle here too.

[Jake Di Vita]

15 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

I'm pretty consistent at that speed. A friend told me to watch the mag fall out of the gun. That ensures I see my mag well. It seems to have helped.

Yeah I like watching the mag fall out of the gun, I think that's generally good advice.

15 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

I have started standing more erect which helps.

I would advise against standing more erect. If you're standing erect while you're shooting the gun is almost certainly going to be pushing you around at least a little. Gotta learn to do the reload while in your most effective shooting position.

15 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

When I try to retrieve a mag faster I end up trying to insert it faster also. If I do the Burkett reload and isolate just getting the fresh mag I can correct this.

Thanks for taking the time to post your advice. I'm going to work on all the points you brought up. It does not cost anything to practice reloads. Why not be good at them!

The Burkett method would help with what you're describing. However, I'd like you to work on developing the control necessary to make adjustments to certain parts of your technique without allowing it to effect other parts. No worries about doing the Burkett method in the short term but I view it almost as training wheels. Something good to allow you to learn but needs to be discarded eventually.

That's the great thing about shooting is you can practice almost everything for free. Hopefully this gives you a bit of a blueprint on how to proceed. Happy to help.

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

What is the theory on where your trigger finger should end up during reload practice?

I try to keep it obviously outside of the trigger guard, based on thinking that muscle memory might save me from a dq from a negligent discharge under match nerves, or possibly even a questionable dq call by a nervous r.o.. I am also thinking that the process of addressing a target will get the trigger finger where it needs to be without lost time. 

Could be wrong. 

I just index my trigger finger on the frame. There's a spot over the slide stop pin where the finish is worn off the gun where my finger stays when it is outside of the trigger guard. The skate tape that Sarge mentioned is a pretty good idea. Points of reference are always good things. My finger goes back to the trigger as soon as I start extending the gun back towards the target.

4 hours ago, Pistolpete9 said:

If those are your normal reloads and you can just speed up your weak hand movement a tiny bit, I'd say you're doing pretty good.  I feel like I reload pretty fast and you are pretty much on par with where I am (I have a cheater mag well too!!!!)  I'm assuming you're reloading with full weight mags.  If not, definitely don't cheat yourself.  Amazing how most people will practice with empty mags and assumes it's the same ( I did it for a couple years ).  

I want to eventually be able to get sub .9 on any standing reload ALL OF THE TIME!  To that end I practice some times at speeds that I know I cannot consistently get it right.  I often end the session with bruised hands and I beat the crap out of my magwell and magazines, but I get more and more right each time and it becomes easier and easier to move at that speed with precision.  Coupled with slower and extremely precise reloading, I'm getting there. 

Couple things. Lately I've been doing most of my dry fire with empty mags. The weight obviously isn't the same but it also requires being a little more precise. If there is a round in the mag, you can impact that round into the magwell and still have the mag go in the hole. With an empty mag if you hit anywhere around the feed lips the mag is not going into the gun. The best of both worlds would be to practice with a weighted mag that had the feed lips open. So I wouldn't say practicing with empty mags is cheating yourself...both empty and full mag practice have their place.

Your practice methods are the same ones I use. I go really fast because it's impossible to learn how to go fast by moving slow. I also have bruised the crap out of the base of my palm more than once and I too beat the hell out of the mags and magwell. I think you're on the right track.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[GARD72977]

Alright I have had a chance to work with my new reloads. It seems Jake has been spot on. The orientation of my gun was my problem. I drew the mag a few times and just put the gun where the mag was going.

The Glock is a different grip angle. I never made a difference in the gun position. 

I have dry-fired reloads for about 20 min. I'm working on my discipline to retrieve the magazine faster without changing anything else. I have been able to speed up my movement to the gun some. I'm not consistent enough yet but reloads are going much better with about .15 to .2 reduction in time.

I'm beating the 1.1 par time by a lot. I kept bumping in back till it hit .9 this seems to be the same as 1.1 was a couple nights ago.

This is a great way to start my new year training plan.

[GARD72977]

I have been doing a lot of reloads tonight. Very interesting results. Since I changed the gun orientation the mag goes in the gun a lot smoother.

I have thrown a few mags across the room. Nothing is subconscious yet.

Now I feel like I can work on my speed and accuracy getting the mag in the mag well. 

Keeping my elbow close is a strange feeling. It seems to work but it's going to require a lot of dry-fire.

I think I'm going to lay off matches until the first of the year. That will give me time to get things in order before I show my buds my new reloading skills

Edited December 2, 2016 by GARD72977

[fastluck13]

I am in the "find the low hanging fruit" camp. Your reload is only a factor on standing reloads. You really should not have any of those except in classifiers/standards.

 

Those reloads are fast enough to get you whatever class you want.

[Jake Di Vita]

48 minutes ago, fastluck13 said:

Your reload is only a factor on standing reloads. You really should not have any of those except in classifiers/standards.

 

Those reloads are fast enough to get you whatever class you want.

I dunno about that. There are frequently situations in stages where reloads need to be done within a step to not delay shooting. I see one or more of these situations in just about all the matches I shoot in Open. The number of times this is seen for Production is too frequent to ignore. Excluding that, I think it is generally best practice to finish the reload as early as you possibly can so you can focus all of your attention on the next task in your stage. The hard part of this is not delaying your movement for the reload. The only way I can get this done correctly is to smash the load as I accelerate out of position. To me, this is how real high level standing reload ability can transfer to reloading between shooting positions.

His reloads are strong enough to get him to any class he wants but there's nothing wrong with making a strength even stronger. Match performance in Production certainly requires a more developed reloading ability than any division except revolver. Because of that I think it's warranted to spend time here even if it isn't the lowest hanging of fruit.

[HDGoose]

14 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Send Jake a check for $80 as you just got a great bit of private instruction.

Great advice indeed! A bunch of that advice is going to be included in my reload practice starting tomorrow!

[Gooldylocks]

I saw the thread title and thought I should come here and try to say something useful, since I think my reload is probably considered decent. But then, pretty much everything had already been said. The one thing that I don't see mentioned is a Ben Stoeger drill; break the reload (also draws) into their constituent parts. I still will regularly work on this. Start aimed at a target, finger on the trigger. On the beep absolutely smash your hand down to the mag pouch while you punch the button like it is sleeping with your wife. Freeze in that position, and you should be burning a hole through the side of the magwell where you are staring at it with your laser vision, with your weak hand gripping the magazine in the pouch. Do this a bunch of times. Then you can work on just the going from the pouch to the gun, like a Burkett load. Then work on putting the magazine in, and rebuilding your grip. Then put it all together. Do it a bunch of times.

Then do it some more. 

::ETA:: Get your left hand really moving to the magazine pouch. This is an .89, the first one in this video is a .86 but you can't see the hand movement I am trying to illustrate

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Gooldylocks

[rowdyb]

to hundo Can You Count you need a flawless reload sub second. nice!

and yes, production is filled with doing a reload in one step, shot to shot. especially on stage with lots of ports/openings in my experience.

Edited December 2, 2016 by rowdyb

[ngodwetrust21]

9 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

I saw the thread title and thought I should come here and try to say something useful, since I think my reload is probably considered decent. But then, pretty much everything had already been said. The one thing that I don't see mentioned is a Ben Stoeger drill; break the reload (also draws) into their constituent parts. I still will regularly work on this. Start aimed at a target, finger on the trigger. On the beep absolutely smash your hand down to the mag pouch while you punch the button like it is sleeping with your wife. Freeze in that position, and you should be burning a hole through the side of the magwell where you are staring at it with your laser vision, with your weak hand gripping the magazine in the pouch. Do this a bunch of times. Then you can work on just the going from the pouch to the gun, like a Burkett load. Then work on putting the magazine in, and rebuilding your grip. Then put it all together. Do it a bunch of times.

 

That was impressive. Your video has inspired me to start working more on my reloads and dig my dry fire book out to start using again. Thank you!

[Gooldylocks]

14 minutes ago, ngodwetrust21 said:

That was impressive. Your video has inspired me to start working more on my reloads and dig my dry fire book out to start using again. Thank you!

Haha you are welcome. But more importantly, does my explanation make sense? And can you see it in the video? If you focus on the magazine in the pouch you can see it pretty well.

[ShortBus]

Am I the only one who cringed watching the OP's video? Trigger finger on the trigger while putting mag back into pouch..

[Jake Di Vita]

9 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

I saw the thread title and thought I should come here and try to say something useful, since I think my reload is probably considered decent. But then, pretty much everything had already been said. The one thing that I don't see mentioned is a Ben Stoeger drill; break the reload (also draws) into their constituent parts. I still will regularly work on this. Start aimed at a target, finger on the trigger. On the beep absolutely smash your hand down to the mag pouch while you punch the button like it is sleeping with your wife. Freeze in that position, and you should be burning a hole through the side of the magwell where you are staring at it with your laser vision, with your weak hand gripping the magazine in the pouch. Do this a bunch of times. Then you can work on just the going from the pouch to the gun, like a Burkett load. Then work on putting the magazine in, and rebuilding your grip. Then put it all together. Do it a bunch of times.

Then do it some more. 

Interesting. I'm actually not a big fan of breaking things down into their constituent parts. There's a concept we use in lifting called "compound yet irreducible" which basically means the individual parts don't apply stimulus the same way as doing the full thing. Now the reload and the draw aren't effected to the same degree as a squat clean is for example, but I think there is still something to it. I've found there's a tendency especially among less experienced shooters that when practicing individual parts they don't always carry over to the full thing. While learning I'd rather someone move slower and consciously burn in the correct habits then force those habits to remain the same while increasing speed. I think this gives better results over time than practicing one part and then trying to integrate it seamlessly. You've obviously made it work well for you, but I think a larger number of people would have trouble with this rather than make it work for them with the same amount of success as you..

[Gooldylocks]

Just now, Jake Di Vita said:

... I've found there's a tendency especially among less experienced shooters that when practicing individual parts they don't always carry over to the full thing. While learning I'd rather someone move slower and consciously burn in the correct habits then force those habits to remain the same while increasing speed. I think this gives better results over time than practicing one part and then trying to integrate it seamlessly. You've obviously made it work well for you, but I think a larger number of people would have trouble with this rather than make it work for them with the same amount of success as you..

I am not trying to say you should't be slowing it down while also breaking it down. You absolutely should, and even video yourself doing it in dryfire. Slow down, and try to get each part perfect, then go faster. Then put it together and go slow focusing on each part, only then should you be trying to go fast while doing the whole thing. Something like a clean, as you mention, is a single action. Something like a draw or reload is many smaller independent actions not reliant on the one that comes before it. It is more like a clean and jerk than a power clean/clean and squat. Even if you kinda screw up the clean, you can still hit the jerk part (at least the way I see it). 

And I should probably clarify that I think breaking it down into constituent parts works most effectively for those that already are doing the whole thing. The OP is already doing 1.1s with a production gun, but could pick up a tenth at least by speeding up the weak hand. Breaking the reload down into its parts could make that improvement easier. 

[Pistolpete9]

ShortBus, the guy is in his living room practicing reloads.  Unless, he is inviting an RO into his practice, I doubt he'll get DQ'ed from dryfire.  I didn't cringe at all.  I trust that he knows proper safety rules.  He also didn't show that his gun was clear at the beginning of the video, which is apparently massively unsafe because YouTube watchers are always worried about being shot through the computer.  

I also am with Jake on NOT breaking reloads into parts, but I think either one can work if done correctly as Gooldylocks clearly showed in that video (nice run!).  

Also, I had a ton of jokes to reply to the "clean and jerk" comments, but I'm WAY too classy to put that kind of stuff on this forum....

[Jake Di Vita]

19 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Something like a clean, as you mention, is a single action. Something like a draw or reload is many smaller independent actions not reliant on the one that comes before it. It is more like a clean and jerk than a power clean/clean and squat. Even if you kinda screw up the clean, you can still hit the jerk part (at least the way I see it). 

Well it actually isn't. A clean is 3 distinct pulls. The first pull is essentially a chest high deadlift to get the bar from the ground to just above the knees. The second pull is the violent explosive pull that creates momentum and acceleration on the bar. That goes from just above the knee to full extension of the hips, legs, and ankles. The third pull is while the bar is weightless, you then and only then pull with your arms until you wedge yourself between the bar and the ground. All 3 of these pulls have distinct ideal body positions that if they aren't executed properly you massively hamper your ability to do the complete movement. You see mistakes during the clean that you don't always see while doing the individual movements.

If I were to practice the clean by it's constituent parts it would be a deadlift, followed by a hang power clean, followed by a front squat. Yes all three of those movements are valuable in their own right, but they don't do the same thing to the body as combining them into one fluid compound multi joint movement.

If you're using any amount of weight that is difficult, you won't get away with kinda screwing it up. As the intensity of the movement increases so does the demand on mechanics.

I think the principles you see here do translate at least partially to the reload.

19 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

And I should probably clarify that I think breaking it down into constituent parts works most effectively for those that already are doing the whole thing. The OP is already doing 1.1s with a production gun, but could pick up a tenth at least by speeding up the weak hand. Breaking the reload down into its parts could make that improvement easier. 

Yep, I agree. I'd just rather him learn how to speed up the weak hand while doing the whole thing.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[SCTaylor]

13 hours ago, fastluck13 said:

I am in the "find the low hanging fruit" camp. Your reload is only a factor on standing reloads. You really should not have any of those except in classifiers/standards.

 

Those reloads are fast enough to get you whatever class you want.

I completely disagree, look how much time I lost on 1 to 2 step reloads. Hitting  your reloads while moving, even a few steps is important.

 

Start at 4:55 if it doesn't auto link.

[Gooldylocks]

1 minute ago, Jake Di Vita said:

Well it actually isn't. A clean is 3 distinct pulls. The first pull is essentially a chest high deadlift to get the bar from the ground to just above the knees. The second pull is the violent explosive pull that creates momentum and acceleration on the bar. That goes from just above the knee to full extension of the hips, legs, and ankles. The third pull is while the bar is weightless, you then and only then pull with your arms until you wedge yourself between the bar and the ground. All 3 of these pulls have distinct ideal body positions that if they aren't executed properly you massively hamper your ability to do the complete movement. You see mistakes during the clean that you don't always see while doing the individual movements.

You literally just ignored what I said. A clean requires you to work on it as one unit (are we in agreement about terminology here? what you describe is a power clean, yes?). Once you have the bar in front squat position though, the jerk to get the bar above your head is completely distinct. You could work on the jerk completely independently of doing cleans. You could have the bar racked and just walk under it like you were gonna do front squats and then back up and do that action. 

And before you say a clean is 3 distinct pulls, why is a reload (which is also composed of multiple separate actions) any different? I would argue the key distinction is that each action is not entirely reliant on the prior step, as it is in a clean. 

[MemphisMechanic]

50 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said:

He also didn't show that his gun was clear at the beginning of the video, which is apparently massively unsafe because YouTube watchers are always worried about being shot through the computer.  

I legitimately "LOL'd" at this one.

Very true. The Safety Police are strongest when they are able to hide behind keyboards at the same time.

For the record, I've shot with the OP a few times, and he hasn't put any holes in any props yet. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[motosapiens]

i dunno nuthin' bout weightlifting, but sometimes it makes sense to me to break things down into certain components. Probably sometimes it doesn't too. For reloads, I found it particularly valuable to do the pause before inserting the mag in order to start treating the insertion as the beginning of getting back on target quickly. Before that, I was focusing on getting the mag into the gun, but neglecting to really pay attention to where I could save time after that. Perhaps at a higher skill level that extra step to separate the steps wouldn't be necessary.

Edited December 2, 2016 by motosapiens
asdf

[Gooldylocks]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i dunno nuthin' bout weightlifting, but sometimes it makes sense to me to break things down into certain components. Probably sometimes it doesn't too. For reloads, I found it particularly valuable to do the pause before inserting the mag in order to start treating the insertion as the beginning of getting back on target quickly. Before that, I was focusing on getting the mag into the gun, but neglecting to really pay attention to where I could save time after that. Perhaps at a higher skill level that extra step to separate the steps wouldn't be necessary. This is exactly what I am talking about. Each individual part is not dependent on that which comes before it. You can rip the mag out of the pouch and then slow to insert it and present the gun. Or perhaps you could be a snail getting to the pouch, but then insert the mag like a boss only to roll the gun back out like a stoned sloth. Each action is independent of the others.

[GARD72977]

My finger is never on the trigger while I preform a reload. The shadow has a large under cut. I bring my finger up and out of the trigger guard as I release the mag. I get back in the trigger guard as I come back on target. It may look bad at that angle but I am completely out of the trigger guard.

[lancejoshlin]

Ehh... At 20secs you can see it's still in that time, can see it poking out the other side while messing with mags... I'm not criticizing though, just eyeballing it.