Let's discuss fast reloads

[GARD72977]

I would like to discuss fast "speed" USPSA reloads. Im stuck in the 1.25 range and don't think my current training will make me faster.

If you are fast please put your .02 cents in the thread.

[Sarge]

I'm not fast so I look for opportunities to reload that won't cost me any time. There are generally a few places in a stage that you have plenty of time to reload without impacting stage times.

Unavoidable in some classifiers of course but those are stand and shoot situations. Dry fire practice at just reloading reloading reloading will help.

[Jake Di Vita]

51 minutes ago, GARD72977 said:

I would like to discuss fast "speed" USPSA reloads. Im stuck in the 1.25 range and don't think my current training will make me faster.

If you are fast please put your .02 cents in the thread.

I'm gonna need you to be way more specific. What is your division/class? What is your current training? How long have you been doing it? What kind of target at what range are you using to measure your reload time? Video is useful.

[GARD72977]

I'm production B (73.88%) class. Have shot 7 classifiers.  Been shooting Idpa for 2 years and started USPSA because I could not stomach shooting around barrels any longer.

I have been judging all my times @ 7yds. I practice everything but track my 7yd skill.

I have a decent dry-fire program and get to live fire practice About 3 times a month. I shoot a couple matches each month.

My reloads went to crap when I switched from a Glock to a CZ. 

I'm making a new commitment to shooting for 2017. I want to start now and have a big dry-fire program going by Jan 1st. I want to make sure my technique is correct. I will post some video tomorrow evening.

Thank you for the interest in my thread.

[Jake Di Vita]

1.25 average at 7 is pretty good for high B production. Track everything you practice if you can, more data is always a good thing.

You say your reloads went to crap when you switched platforms. Is 1.25 what you were doing with the Glock or what you're currently doing with the CZ? How long ago did you make the switch? How much do you dry fire? 

[GARD72977]

I made the switch in March. I was only shooting IDPA back then. I was doing a reload with retention in 1.4-1.5 seconds. Slide lock was 1.25 or better. My CZ started out terrible. Metal mag and metal gun are much harder to out together.

I live in the country but cannot live fire because there is no back stop. Last month I set up a dry-fire range in the backyard. I usually get about 1.5 hours a week of dry-fire. I wanting to step up to 5 hours a week

[Dr Mitch]

Focus on the technique, break it all down.  A reload is a complex process.  Do Burkett reloads for a while.  Practice grabbing your reload mag at the same time that your thumb gets to the mag release.  You should be able to get semi-consistent 0.8-1.0 reloads really pretty quickly once you start breaking everything down.  Getting lower than that takes a whole lot of work.  A lot of it is feel, repetition, confidence.  Do reloads with your eyes closed, or blind folded.  You can do it.  You can do it quickly.

[mlmiller1]

Want to reload faster? Set a par time on your timer .1 slower than your Average reload. Gun up & ready.  Fire on start beep, reload & wait for par beep then fire.  When youre waiting .2 or so after your reload, move par time .1 faster.  Continue this until you have a hard time beating par time.  Make sure all hits are A on 7yd target.  When you reach that "I cant beat the par" point, erase par time.  Fire on beep, reload & fire.  You will do faster reload.  Its not too hard to knock some time off your reloads.  You will be amazed I think.

[Jake Di Vita]

14 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

I made the switch in March. I was only shooting IDPA back then. I was doing a reload with retention in 1.4-1.5 seconds. Slide lock was 1.25 or better. My CZ started out terrible. Metal mag and metal gun are much harder to out together.

I live in the country but cannot live fire because there is no back stop. Last month I set up a dry-fire range in the backyard. I usually get about 1.5 hours a week of dry-fire. I wanting to step up to 5 hours a week

Well if I were you I'd try and get that backstop built.

Post video of some speed loads when you can (dry fire, live fire, either is fine). The suggestions made so far are more of how to practice reloads but since you're having trouble with the technical parts of it, don't worry about that stuff yet. First thing is lets figure out what is causing the problem, then we can talk about how to practice it. Let's also not worry about the retention or slide lock loads, you're to be bashed over the head by the idpa rulebook no longer.

The two posters above me seem to think it won't be much of a problem to get your reloads under a second. Well I'm here to tell ya that consistent sub second reloads in production are no joke and it's going to take a lot of work for that to happen.

[motosapiens]

I would say reloads are probably not the low-hanging fruit if you are a high B shooter able reload consistently in the 1.25 second range. I'd keep working on them (probably every day), but I would focus more on shot-calling.

I have improved my reloads alot in the last year or so, but i don't expect them to ever be under a second because my muscles just don't go that fast.

things that helped with speed and consistency are burkett reloads (really focusing on how i grab the fresh mag, so I get it consistently every time), and anderson's pause and effect reloads, which helped with consistency, and also sped up the portion from the insertion of the mag to getting back on target. What really helped tho is just spending at least a few minutes working on reloads every single day.

[lancejoshlin]

Want to reload faster? Set a par time on your timer .1 slower than your Average reload. Gun up & ready.  Fire on start beep, reload & wait for par beep then fire.  When youre waiting .2 or so after your reload, move par time .1 faster.  Continue this until you have a hard time beating par time.  Make sure all hits are A on 7yd target.  When you reach that "I cant beat the par" point, erase par time.  Fire on beep, reload & fire.  You will do faster reload.  Its not too hard to knock some time off your reloads.  You will be amazed I think.

Why are you firing again after the par beep? As long as you beat the par beep you know your faster than it... Plus this drill is super easy to do dry fire just using dummy rounds for weighted mags. Just curious what firing the extra shot gets you after par...

[Jake Di Vita]

39 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I would say reloads are probably not the low-hanging fruit if you are a high B shooter able reload consistently in the 1.25 second range. I'd keep working on them (probably every day), but I would focus more on shot-calling.

I have improved my reloads alot in the last year or so, but i don't expect them to ever be under a second because my muscles just don't go that fast.

things that helped with speed and consistency are burkett reloads (really focusing on how i grab the fresh mag, so I get it consistently every time), and anderson's pause and effect reloads, which helped with consistency, and also sped up the portion from the insertion of the mag to getting back on target. What really helped tho is just spending at least a few minutes working on reloads every single day.

1.25 average reloads at B class for sure aren't his low hanging fruit. But I doubt he's pulling a 1.25 average right now with his CZ as he's said the platform switch has caused problems. Focusing on shot calling is good advice as a lot of other suggestions would be that have nothing to do with the question he asked. 

You don't think your muscles are capable of doing a sub second reload? Why is that? I've seen you type at least 50 times about how healthy and fit you are. I've also seen plenty of people around your age that aren't healthy and fit who are able to do a sub second load. Elite level hand speed would be like a .6 reload....all you need to hit a second is decent hand speed and very good precision at that speed.

I liked the pause outside of the magwell when Buckett (tribute to my old friend Stew) first came out with his videos eons ago, but after years of work and thought on the subject I'm not a fan of it anymore. All my practice at this point is at a speed higher than I would go in a match and while the pause is not a lot of time it is more than I want to be there.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

You don't think your muscles are capable of doing a sub second reload? Why is that?

i'm tallish (6'2"), thin, 55 yrs old, and blessed with lots of endurance, but not particularly high speed in any muscles. Plus, all my arm movements have to travel further than someone  6 or 8" shorter. Doesn't stop me from continuing to work on it, tho, maybe I'm wrong and I'll get under a second before I turn 60. Your other points are excellent, but as you are probably aware, there is a significant difference in the precision that is required to reload ss or production vs limited/open. Hopefully with continued practice I will be able to reload consistently without the tiny pause too.

[Jake Di Vita]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i'm tallish (6'2"), thin, 55 yrs old, and blessed with lots of endurance, but not particularly high speed in any muscles. Plus, all my arm movements have to travel further than someone  6 or 8" shorter. Doesn't stop me from continuing to work on it, tho, maybe I'm wrong and I'll get under a second before I turn 60. Your other points are excellent, but as you are probably aware, there is a significant difference in the precision that is required to reload ss or production vs limited/open. Hopefully with continued practice I will be able to reload consistently without the tiny pause too.

Yeah I really doubt you are physically incapable of sub second loads...a lot of the time people are moving their hands fast enough to accomplish the load in under a second but they take forever to shoot a round after mag insertion.

There's a significant difference if you're relying on the magwell to get the reload done. Well executed reloads don't even touch the magwell so I'd say if you're doing it right it doesn't really matter if you're shooting prod vs. ltd/open. SS is a little different since there isn't a taper to the mags, but since you're allowed a small magwell I'd call it pretty close to the same effective difficulty as production. I think the only thing the magwell does is increases consistency because of a larger margin for error, although sometimes it has the opposite effect if people are just aiming for the magwell instead of the actual hole the magazine goes into.

[motosapiens]

thanks for your encouragement. I'll keep working at it. whether or not i get under a second is not really all that relevant, as long as I keep getting better and more consistent than I  used to be.

[rowdyb]

Video will reveal quite a bit.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

It occurred to me the other day that I have spent way too much time practicing reloads while standing still, considering that I do my best to avoid that situation. 

The other recent reload revelation (say that three times fast) was from watching a gm single stack shooter reload in about a step and a half, opens up a lot of course options for limited capacity divisions. 

FWIW. 

[Jake Di Vita]

29 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

It occurred to me the other day that I have spent way too much time practicing reloads while standing still, considering that I do my best to avoid that situation. 

The other recent reload revelation (say that three times fast) was from watching a gm single stack shooter reload in about a step and a half, opens up a lot of course options for limited capacity divisions. 

FWIW. 

When I was a B class production shooter one step reloads were the gold standard goal among the group of people I tended to squad with. I've always felt that accomplishing the load within the first step of movement is best practice. The counter point of this is the large group of people that feel reloading like this delays the start of their movement and they would rather reload on the way. There are lots of people that utilize both methods really well. The only way you know what the best method is for you is to thoroughly test it all with a timer.

This has all been hashed and rehashed in past threads but my feeling is if you develop your reload to a high enough level you can complete it at the beginning of your acceleration into movement without delaying the movement at all. Which as you said is within a step or step and a half.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[GARD72977]

Here is the video. Phone dry-fire timer is set to 1.1

https://youtu.be/rLFGmQwQ2V8

I cannot consistently hit the 1.1 but it is a good time for me to work toward. I just cannot seem to get faster. In full disclosure I do not practice Burkett reloads and I know that I do not get the 1.5 hours of dry-fire in most weeks. My way is not working so I'm here for help. I plan to start the Burkett reloads this week.

I can move my hands faster but the reloads really fall apart. What do you see in the video that I can change to improve my reloads

 

Jake, my current is about a 1.25 reload. I have made progress with the CZ. I started out at 1.5 seconds. Maybe my expectations are set to high. I really want to reload from my first mag pouch in under a second.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by GARD72977

[Jake Di Vita]

Ok. First thing if your timer is set at 1.1 and you're starting your reload by reacting to the timer that would be closer to .9 if we were measuring the shot to shot split on the timer.

If you're having trouble consistently hitting the speed we saw in the video, show me the bad reps too. I can only offer limited feedback if I don't see exactly where you are breaking down. That's why I like match footage so much to create a training plan. Can't hide the bad stuff. If you could do what you do in the video 100% of the time, I'd tell you to quit worrying about it and just focus on the other aspects of your game that are slowing you down.

Anyway, I saw a few things that I would adjust. The first is the orientation of the gun at mag insertion looks like it might be a little awkward for the arm that is bringing the fresh mag. Without holding a gun in your hand, draw your fresh mag at full speed and put it in the position around your chest/neck area that feels the most comfortable. Note how the mag is oriented is all 3 axis and try to align your gun to that position when you reload.

The second thing is personal experience from when I shot production. I noticed that when I kept the elbow of my reloading arm tight to the side of my body I could use that as a point of reference to make the reload as close to the same every time as I could. You mentioned that you fall apart when you move your hands faster, this really helped me with my consistency.

The largest place you are losing time is without a doubt the point from full grip to getting the fresh mag in your hand. You have to think of your arm as a wet towel and snap it down to new mag. If that is the only part of your load you change, you'll knock a tenth off. You could probably get from pouch to gun a little faster as well, but you'll have an easier time improving gun to pouch speed as it doesn't require quite the same level of precision at the end.

The most important thing of all. If you really want to get good, you need the gun in your hand at least for a little bit everyday. Remember that this is an intricate and long process. Consistently working at the edge of your ability is how you get better at anything and it takes time. Years of cumulative effort. It's important to be patient and let the training work.

[GARD72977]

I'm pretty consistent at that speed. A friend told me to watch the mag fall out of the gun. That ensures I see my mag well. It seems to have helped.

I have started standing more erect which helps.

What you said about gun orientation really stands out. I'm going to work on that. The mag seems slow going into the gun.

When I try to retrieve a mag faster I end up trying to insert it faster also. If I do the Burkett reload and isolate just getting the fresh mag I can correct this.

Thanks for taking the time to post your advice. I'm going to work on all the points you brought up. It does not cost anything to practice reloads. Why not be good at them!

Edited December 1, 2016 by GARD72977

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

The largest place you are losing time is without a doubt the point from full grip to getting the fresh mag in your hand. You have to think of your arm as a wet towel and snap it down to new mag. If that is the only part of your load you change, you'll knock a tenth off.

Marker post. 

[rowdyb]

Send Jake a check for $80 as you just got a great bit of private instruction.

[IHAVEGAS]

What is the theory on where your trigger finger should end up during reload practice?

I try to keep it obviously outside of the trigger guard, based on thinking that muscle memory might save me from a dq from a negligent discharge under match nerves, or possibly even a questionable dq call by a nervous r.o.. I am also thinking that the process of addressing a target will get the trigger finger where it needs to be without lost time. 

Could be wrong. 

[Sarge]

25 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

What is the theory on where your trigger finger should end up during reload practice?

I try to keep it obviously outside of the trigger guard, based on thinking that muscle memory might save me from a dq from a negligent discharge under match nerves, or possibly even a questionable dq call by a nervous r.o.. I am also thinking that the process of addressing a target will get the trigger finger where it needs to be without lost time. 

Could be wrong. 

Depending in division I put a small piece of skate tape on the frame where my finger tip falls. Gives me a good reference and if course enough holds my finger in place when it wants to curl