Holster Gap Rule for Single Stack

[Fuzz]

I am looking for the rule pertaining to the Gap allowed for a SS holster/Gun in USPSA. I recently just hung a BOSS on my Holster and someone mentioned they have been DQing some for the distance from the body. I looked in the rules  and can't seem to find it. All I can find is the height. Thanks for any help provided.

[GrumpyOne]

Appendix D5 section 10.  Two inches max from inner belt.

[molson]

Fuzz,

The USPSA.org site under rules / NROI rulings has a ruling on this.  Go read it.  Does not hurt to know the rules and this is why you are here.  The people DQ'ing shooters for non compliance need to do this as well as this is not a DQ.

Go look it up and educate those that are stating this.

Edited: to add NROI rulings

molson

Edited November 27, 2016 by molson

[Fuzz]

Thanks that was what I was looking for. I was not finding it. So I appreciate it.

 

Oh and yes I have read the rules. Thanks.

[JodiH]

Are you sure they weren't talking about the height of the pistol in relation to the belt?  In single stack, only ladies get to use a DOH.  App. D5 #20: "Must carry pistol so that the entire front strap (to the trigger guard) is at or above the top of the belt. Female shooters must carry the pistol no lower than the heel of the butt at the top of the belt."  

[aandabooks]

Holster non-compliance is not a DQ offense.  It is a zero for the stage and a bump to open if the competitor can't bring their gear into compliance.

[ChuckS]

27 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

Holster non-compliance is not a DQ offense.  It is a zero for the stage and a bump to open if the competitor can't bring their gear into compliance.

Open has the same 2"  rule so the original situation is a bump to no-score for the rest of the match if they can't fix it., but still not a DQ

Edited November 27, 2016 by ChuckS

[teros135]

27 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Open has the same 2"  rule so the original situation is a bump to no-score for the rest of the match if they can't fix it., but still not a DQ

"So be good, for goodness sake!"

Sorry, Christmas is coming and that just popped out  .

[IHAVEGAS]

Shot with a guy & normally his holster would tilt putting the handle of the gun away from his body past allowed distance. But if he stood just so and positioned the belt height just so then the bottom of the holster would contact his leg and the handle would be back within legal distance. 

Ok or not ok? 

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Shot with a guy & normally his holster would tilt putting the handle of the gun away from his body past allowed distance. But if he stood just so and positioned the belt height just so then the bottom of the holster would contact his leg and the handle would be back within legal distance. 

Ok or not ok? 

5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn or removed (see App. E2).

[IHAVEGAS]

8 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn or removed (see App. E2).

Understood. If you take the measurements with equipment removed are you allowed to torque the belt/holster a little bit so that the gun does not tilt, sort of doing the same thing as the holster hanger contacting the shooters leg. 

[teros135]

Shouldn't we be looking at whether the gun sits where it should on the belt and the body when the shooter is in their normal starting position, not some artificial position that moves the equipment around?

The hanger doesn't change the position of the gun; it keeps it in position.  The DAA and Stoeger hangers, for instance, are rigid and keep the whole rig in the same position all the time.  The Blade-Tec drop-offset hanger seems to have some flex and used to push the gun out beyond the 2" boundary (have they fixed this?).

BTW, the rule reads 2 inches, not "2 inches at some point in the day".  I'd say if it's not 2 inches at all points in time it needs to be adjusted.

[IHAVEGAS]

8 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Shouldn't we be looking at whether the gun sits where it should on the belt and the body when the shooter is in their normal starting position, not some artificial position that moves the equipment around?

The hanger doesn't change the position of the gun; it keeps it in position.  The DAA and Stoeger hangers, for instance, are rigid and keep the whole rig in the same position all the time.  The Blade-Tec drop-offset hanger seems to have some flex and used to push the gun out beyond the 2" boundary (have they fixed this?).

BTW, the rule reads 2 inches, not "2 inches at some point in the day".  I'd say if it's not 2 inches at all points in time it needs to be adjusted.

My Stoeger hanger (just tried it) contacts my leg and that contact changes the position of the gun depending upon how I'm standing, with my anatomy & that hanger the change is not much, with more flexible hangers (I think the shooter in question had a blade tek but I am not sure) and different anatomies  the amount of movement varies. 

Else, I like your philosophy on the subject but without something more concrete I do not think I could rule against a shooter who sees things differently. I happen to game everything I can myself  . 

[teros135]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

<snip>

Else, I like your philosophy on the subject but without something more concrete I do not think I could rule against a shooter who sees things differently. I happen to game everything I can myself  . 

It shouldn't matter if a shooter sees it differently (example - do we give in to everybody who "sees" a perfect double in that single hole in the target?  )  The rule says measure,  so we measure.  If shooter disagrees, there's a chain of appeal.   

(I measured a roundish fellow once whose belt was below his rather ample stomach and whose gun stuck out at what looked to be a "gunfighter" angle.   It was 2" from the inside of the inner belt and thus legal. Go figure.  It's the rule.)

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, teros135 said:

It shouldn't matter if a shooter sees it differently

I should probably have said something like, if the rulebook does not specifically support my opinion then I do not think I would have a valid reason to rule against the shooter in this case. As you mentioned it could be kicked upstream, but I'm hesitant to kick something upstream if I can't find something written that seems to support my opinion. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by IHAVEGAS

[teros135]

Sure, although the rule book supports 2", measured.

To clarify, I wasn't thinking about our "kicking it upstream", rather that the shooter has options if he doesn't like the call.  He's taking it higher up, not the RO.

8 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I should probably have said something like, if the rulebook does not specifically support my opinion then I do not think I would have a valid reason to rule against the shooter in this case. As you mentioned it could be kicked upstream, but I'm hesitant to kick something upstream if I can't find something written that seems to support my opinion. 

 

[bret]

On 11/27/2016 at 7:17 AM, Fuzz said:

I am looking for the rule pertaining to the Gap allowed for a SS holster/Gun in USPSA. I recently just hung a BOSS on my Holster and someone mentioned they have been DQing some for the distance from the body. I looked in the rules  and can't seem to find it. All I can find is the height. Thanks for any help provided.

not a D.Q. 

it is 2", if they don't comply it's supposed to be a stage Zero.

[bret]

On 11/27/2016 at 9:24 AM, aandabooks said:

Holster non-compliance is not a DQ offense.  It is a zero for the stage and a bump to open if the competitor can't bring their gear into compliance.

if it's over 2 inches, it is a stage Zero, not a bump to open, as Open only allows 2".

Unless at Nationals, then you get a reshoot.

[Fuzz]

Thanks for the help guys. Let's not get caught up in the punishment dealt out. I think he was just stating it to make a point and was not really sure of what he was speaking. It is good to have it clarified though.

 

2 inches from the inside of the belt. That is it I found it. I read trough that and somehow kept missing it. Now I know.

[Sarge]

29 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

 

 

2 inches from the inside of the belt. That is it I found it. 

Actually it's more precise than that. In the case of a two piece belt like we all use, the measurement is taken from the inside of the INNER belt.

0. from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Sarge

[Fuzz]

I did not read that in the appendix mentioned above. Please advise. Where is this stated?

[bret]

9 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

I did not read that in the appendix mentioned above. Please advise. Where is this stated?

E2 shows how to measure.

[Fuzz]

4 minutes ago, bret said:

E2 shows how to measure.

Cool that helps thanks.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

I did not read that in the appendix mentioned above. Please advise. Where is this stated?

5.2.5

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

I did not read that in the appendix mentioned above. Please advise. Where is this stated?

5.2.5

[George Jones]

Per a recent NROI ruling, the distance is actually 2 1/8".  This was meant to simplify the measurement by using the narrow side of an overlay (or standard credit card or hotel room key - they all seem to be cut to the same dimensions).