PCC Essentials

[Odessa Straight]

I've been shooting USPSA PCC exclusively since it's status as a provisional division and I get questions about what is absolutely essential for PCC.  I think it's absolutely essential for any PCC:

1. Absolutely reliable (true for any USPSA gun),

2. Quick to reach/operate controls (like safety and mag release)

3. Have a mag capacity of at least 30 rounds (and capable of quick reloads with practice).

4. Have bolt hold open function (especially thinking mandatory USPSA and  IDPA reloads)

5. Have a reliable optical sight. 

I'm just a middle of the pack PCC competitor and in no way a guru.  Perhaps others may add or subtract from the above short list as to what they consider essential for a PCC.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Odessa Straight

[DocMedic]

On (3) I say the recommended minimum size mag you need is 32.

On (4) not important in USPSA unless you screwed up. IDPA not sure on what rule set they'll use.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[Bluemooncricket]

I'm not sure about how IDPA will rule on LRBHO but the majority of Limited shooters disable their slide lock anyway. My Glock mag PCC has no LRBHO so I've decided to upgrade to a larger ambidextrous charging handle to speed up manipulations.

[Bluemooncricket]

Better triggers never hurt either.

[Odessa Straight]

another reason I like the bolt hold open is if I do run dry I can easily feel it, reload and just hit the release whereas if the bolt runs forward and locks closed on an empty chamber I'll usually try to fire with a click and then have to reload,cycle the bolt and then fire.  I have shot a MP Mk10 for PCC which doesn't have a bolt hold open and much prefer my AR 9mm with the bolt hold open.  Having the bolt lock back also makes it simpler to insert/remove the flag safety without having the spring pressure of the bolt to hold back.  I'm reading the IDPA new rulebook proposal and it calls for 10 round PCC mags and 3 mag total per stage, I'm guessing lots of slide/botl lock (empty chamber reloads).

Yes about the 32 rounds minimum (I do have 32 round Colt type SMG mags)  I'm ready to buy extended base pads for 3 or 4 more rounds, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes about the 32 rounds

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: The lock back feature is not needed I think for USPSA PCC since you will plan your reload or have big ass mags that you won't have to reload. I think a side charging upper would be very nice if you get a jam or unloaded starts. I think a lightweight rifle would be a plus also. If IDPA is going to do PCC then I think the Glock mag platform will be hard to beat since they offer cheap 10 round mags. Thanks, Eric

[Southpaw]

53 minutes ago, Odessa Straight said:

 Having the bolt lock back also makes it simpler to insert/remove the flag safety without having the spring pressure of the bolt to hold back. 

I agree with others that bolt hold open isn't needed for USPSA and I don't shoot IDPA. On all 9mm ARs even if they don't lock back when empty the bolt catch still works to manually lock back the bolt to put chamber flag in.

I think you'll want more than 32 round mags if you want to get serious about PCC, at least with the types of matches and stages we do around here.

[norbs007]

PCC is all I've been shooting lately and I actually opted for a non-LRBHO upper.  But installed a Phase 5 Tactical extended bolt catch to make it easy manually locking back the bolt to show clear and insert a chamber flag.  Like all the guns we use in the different divisions a good trigger helps too.

[rowdyb]

adjustable stock. changing the length of your gun can be helpful.

mag pouch or pocket position that keeps the type of mag you use for pcc reloads in place and in a good hand position for fast carbine reloads.

oversize/ambi controls

100% reliability of every component.

[mreed911]

Are oversize controls legal? I honestly haven't memorized the pcc rules enough to remember...

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, mreed911 said:

Are oversize controls legal? I honestly haven't memorized the pcc rules enough to remember...

PCC has virtually no restrictions. Suppressors not being permitted is about all I'm aware of.

[lucas]

It always sounds like, I,m the only one who has lost his concentration or made a mistake when something unexpected happened while running a stage and went to LRBO. Recently while engaged in a 48rd stage with my PCC, I unknowingly started with a my down loaded mag that was to be my reload, instead of my fully loaded mag to start and guess what happened? I like LRBO because when my bolt locked back  I knew  instantly to reload instead of hearing click first . USPSA pistol is when a lot people don,t want slide lock because most of us shoot 2011 STI pistols and they are afraid, although I,m not, that their mag will prematurely lock back for a couple of reasons which has never happened in rifles unless something is in disrepair. 

[js1130146]

4 minutes ago, lucas said:

It always sounds like, I,m the only one who has lost his concentration or made a mistake when something unexpected happened while running a stage and went to LRBO. Recently while engaged in a 48rd stage with my PCC, I unknowingly started with a my down loaded mag that was to be my reload, instead of my fully loaded mag to start and guess what happened? I like LRBO because when my bolt locked back  I knew  instantly to reload instead of hearing click first . USPSA pistol is when a lot people don,t want slide lock because most of us shoot 2011 STI pistols and they are afraid, although I,m not, that their mag will prematurely lock back for a couple of reasons which has never happened in rifles unless something is in disrepair. 

It's not premature lockback that most 2011 shooters are worried about. It's damage from over insertion of a magazine. It's really easy to do and will completely lock your gun up and/or break stuff that's not so easily replaced.

[Odessa Straight]

Many seem not to want the bolt hold-open.  I like it and even returned two new mags that worked fine except for not holding the bolt open.  I can hear and feel the bolt locking open with the PCC even more so than with a pistol.  Stage planning sometimes goes South, maybe a few too many make up shots, etc, and if (when) I run dry I know it instantaneously with the BHO.

3 PCC issues I'm working to improve are better mag pouches (so the long 32 round mags sit a bit lower on my belt), getting quality extended mag base pads for my 32 round Colt type mags (+3 or 4 rounds and a nice soft base for my palm)., and learning to get better hits at very close range.  My first two above are easy, just buying better gear.  The dot being so far above the bore line is new to me and I'm learning about making tight shots at the closer ranges (probably best for me to just see the dot for all shots and have it 4 inches high at the close shots).  I sometimes shoot on the same squad as a Master level PCCer and  he shoots all As out to 7 yards from the hip (very quickly :).  I tried that and found out I need to use my sights.

[lucas]

10 hours ago, js1130146 said:

It's not premature lockback that most 2011 shooters are worried about. It's damage from over insertion of a magazine. It's really easy to do and will completely lock your gun up and/or break stuff that's not so easily replaced.

Your absolutely correct that is one of the reasons not the only. By the way, If anyone wants their 2011firearm to work as intended use Dawson base pads which prevents over insertion. I apologize, I know this thread is about PCC's not pistols.

 

 

 

[Stealthfixr]

Is there a dominant PCC platform or common carbines seen in competition so far? Contemplating PCC and looking at a Scorpion EVO Carbine or a Spartan AR-9 setup. Anything else to really consider?

[Odessa Straight]

From what I've seen AR-9s of varying degrees of expense are most dominant. The one PCC Master I know of in my area shoots AR-9 with Glock mags.  Most of the other PCCers I see are with some sort of AR, too (about 50%-50% Glock or Colt type mags)  Many around here have military experience and already have great familiarity with the AR platform.  It's hard to go wrong with a quality AR in 9mm.  Mine is a relatively low cost AR with PSA 16" flat top upper and regular PSA AR 15 lower with Hahn mag block for colt type mags; MagPull stock. Alpha rail fore-end, Burris Fastfire 3 red dot so I have less than $1000.00 into it (8 mags and all).  I have seen, and used other PPCs such as Storms, Kel Tec, Hi Point and Master Piece MAC, but after a match or two they (me too with the Master Piece carbine) move on to something like the AR-9.  My main trouble with the MPA carbine was the safety awkwardly controlled with the index finger and the mag release on the heel of the mag well more like an AK47.  There was also no bolt hold open which I feel necessary (many don't).  The AR (and other systems) have safety and mag release much easier to use (including the bolt hold open that I like).  I've really got the hots for a SIG MPX carbine but the expense for a new gun and those proprietary mags for it are holding me back.    

[Sarge]

On 11/26/2016 at 0:09 PM, lucas said:

Your absolutely correct that is one of the reasons not the only. By the way, If anyone wants their 2011firearm to work as intended use Dawson base pads which prevents over insertion. I apologize, I know this thread is about PCC's not pistols.

 

 

 

There isn't a base pad in existence that will prevent over insertion of a big stick.

[Patrick Scott]

The only things I disagree with are 3 and 4

3) 40rds min, that gives you 8 extra over any lv2 and up match stage

4) if you are running at least 40, you don't need it to lock back. If you shoot your 40+ mag til dry, having to rack the bolt is the least of your worries when it comes to your placement on the stage.  All that and I haven't seen the hicap handgun guys need it even with ~30 round sticks

[Bob Hostetter]

Magazines need to hold closer to 40 rounds then 32 rounds. I just ordered some XProducts 50 round drums.

Seems like a shorter barrel is better. Currently running a 16", building a 13" and 10".

 

 

[rowdyb]

the dudes i see who run a sbr definitely have faster transitions than the 16" barrel carbine guys. also, for reloads, the dudes who do a "beer can" style reload seem to have an easier time with longer/higher capacity mags and their pouches versus the people trying to do a more pistol style mag reload.

[noexcuses]

4 hours ago, rowdyb said:

the dudes i see who run a sbr definitely have faster transitions than the 16" barrel carbine guys. also, for reloads, the dudes who do a "beer can" style reload seem to have an easier time with longer/higher capacity mags and their pouches versus the people trying to do a more pistol style mag reload.

ok I gotta ask, what is a beer can style reload?

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, noexcuses said:

ok I gotta ask, what is a beer can style reload?

Google it.  Lots of videos.  Grab the long mag stick like a beer can and slam it in vs. finger-indexed.

[Bob Hostetter]

Grap it in the middle instead of on the end. It works even better if you put grip/skateboard tape around the magazines.

[Odessa Straight]

I've tried both finger index/palm and beer can reloads both in practice and in matches with PCC and am going with the more familiar finger index for now.  It is more difficult with the longer mags than with pistol mags, but feels more natural to me.

I don't know where the folks, who write to just use bigger mags and not have to reload, shoot matches but I'm having to make many mandatory reloads,  Downloaded mags to start a stage are not uncommon (I remember one download to 6 rounds recently). Some USPSA classifiers include mandatory reloads.  If you're going to shoot PCC for IDPA the division capacity (max) is 10 rounds in the mags and IDPA does lots of slide (bolt) lock reloads.  If you've seen someone shoot IDPA who's pistol doesn't lock the slide back you've seen the extra steps required (racking) to complete the reload instead of just tripping the release on the new mag. I'm sticking with my BHO and any new mag I get must pass the test of BHO as part of being reliable. 

I'm wondering if the new IDPA classifier will apply for PCC.  I think it's rowdyb (above) who has a u tube about the new classifier.  The pressure is on because at the end of the video he states that if I don't make Master I'm either a Wuss or throwing it