Visible at rest

[bret]

How much of a target can be hidden, or not available at rest for a target to be considered visible at rest?

[gng4life]

Not to be a smarta$$ but have you read the rule book? It is in the appendix, section Appendix B2 and B3. Basically, the metric is either the entire upper A zone or 25% of the lower A zone. See the diagram for the Classic target measurements but must have 25% of A zone available.

[Kraj]

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be presented.

 

Appendix B2 classic target

"At least 25% of the A-zone must remain visible around hardcover or overlapping no-shoots." 

APPENDIX B3, Metric Target
At least 25% of the lower A-zone, or the entire upper A-zone, must remain visible around hardcover or overlapping no-shoots.

[teros135]

1 hour ago, gng4life said:

Not to be a smarta$$ but have you read the rule book? It is in the appendix, section Appendix B2 and B3. Basically, the metric is either the entire upper A zone or 25% of the lower A zone. See the diagram for the Classic target measurements but must have 25% of A zone available.

gng4 life isn't being a smarta$$ at all.  First place to look is the rule book.  Then come here if it isn't clear to you.  (And Bret knows the rule book!  )

Of course, in the Enosverse you tend to get a zillion re-interpretations, reframes, wishful thinking, "that's so unfair", and even the occasional troll comment...

Edited November 7, 2016 by teros135

[ATLDave]

As others have said, the standard is laid out in the rule book.

Now, I have wondered about exactly how to apply it in one situation:

• A moving target rests behind a no-shoot, which is positioned a few inches lower and a couple of feet ahead of the target.  The target is available from only one location (so the view at rest can't be changed by moving uprange or downrange or to the side.
• The stage designer/builder intends for the target to be visible at rest, with the upper A zone available over the top of the no-shoot.
• For 95% of shooters, the upper A zone is visible at rest.
• For the shortest 5% of shooters, however, their lower angle means that the entire upper A zone is not visible at rest.  Some or all of the upper A zone is behind the no-shoot.
• Is this target properly scored as a visible-at-rest target?  

[bret]

My question is in regards to swingers, at rest when not moving the A Zone was not available

The swingers don't stop moving for quite awhile, they take 3 minutes maybe more to stop moving, only when they stop moving is the A Zone no longer available.

[ChuckS]

28 minutes ago, bret said:

My question is in regards to swingers, at rest when not moving the A Zone was not available

The swingers don't stop moving for quite awhile, they take 3 minutes maybe more to stop moving, only when they stop moving is the A Zone no longer available.

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be presented.

The rule says "at rest" with no temporal constraints. If the B2/B3 is not satisfied "at rest", no FTSA/Mike penalties.

[ATLDave]

All the rules speak to is where it is at rest.  The rules don't "care" about how long it takes to come to rest.  

[teros135]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

As others have said, the standard is laid out in the rule book.

Now, I have wondered about exactly how to apply it in one situation:

• A moving target rests behind a no-shoot, which is positioned a few inches lower and a couple of feet ahead of the target.  The target is available from only one location (so the view at rest can't be changed by moving uprange or downrange or to the side.
• The stage designer/builder intends for the target to be visible at rest, with the upper A zone available over the top of the no-shoot.
• For 95% of shooters, the upper A zone is visible at rest.
• For the shortest 5% of shooters, however, their lower angle means that the entire upper A zone is not visible at rest.  Some or all of the upper A zone is behind the no-shoot.
• Is this target properly scored as a visible-at-rest target?  

Interesting scenario.  Off the top of my head I'd say it needs to be designed so that the shortest competitor can see a legal amount of Alpha, or it's "disappearing" even for the taller folks.  

Better design is to not do that at all and have them right on top of each other, like we usually do.  (Parallax can be such a pain  )

[ATLDave]

10 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Interesting scenario.  Off the top of my head I'd say it needs to be designed so that the shortest competitor can see a legal amount of Alpha, or it's "disappearing" even for the taller folks.  

Better design is to not do that at all and have them right on top of each other, like we usually do.  (Parallax can be such a pain  )

I agree that designing around this is best, but many movers have some "depth."  And no-shoots tend to have at least a couple of inches of "depth" as well... target sticks/wall at the least, and depth of base is often more.  And, particularly for relatively close targets, it doesn't take that much depth to create the potential for this if the designer tries to set it up so that only the upper A zone (and a minimal amount of B zone below it) is visible.  

While designing around it is clearly preferable, I still wonder about what the right answer is if/when it happens.

[motosapiens]

IMHO the right answer for atlDave's question is that if the shortest shooter doesn't have the required portion of the alpha at rest, it has to be scored as a disappearing target.

In general I try not to make it close at all so I don'[t have to worry about that stuff.

[Poppa Bear]

I agree with Moto.  If all is not visible to everyone at rest then it becomes a disappearing target.  Being as the upper A is 1/3 of the head and the lowest portion of the upper A is 1/2 of the total height (there is a 2.5 CM B zone above the A), making a majority of the head available makes it virtually impossible for the HC or NS to restrict view of the A zone to even the shortest of shooters.  The shooters most impacted will be the tallest ones who might have a bit of the C zone available below the head.