Will they ever do away with major/minor for Limited?

[glockman75]

There are plenty of divisions to shoot your beloved 9mm.  Open, Production, Carry Optics, Revolver, PCC, Single Stack.  Limited is not one them.

[ATLDave]

It is clear that those arguing for dispensing with major or boosting minor are basing their arguments on the premise that minor and major are supposed to have competitive parity in all divisions.  

That is a false premise.  That's not a core premise of the sport.*  Moreover, the fact that the 3 most popular divisions (Open, Limited, and Production) are the 3 divisions where there is NO parity between major/minor suggests that this is not something the competitors want.  It's certainly not something that is holding us back. 

Now, factor in the fact that the sport is run for and by people who are currently competing, and primarily by people competing in the 3 divisions where major/minor is a settled matter, and then consider that any change would requires massive new personal expenditures across the sport.

So this thread is about solving a non-problem by inflicting a huge amount of financial pain on the quasi-shareholders of this enterprise.  

Not.  Gonna.  Happen.  Get over it.  

* The premise is to balance speed, accuracy, and power.  If you can increase speed and accuracy enough by giving up some power, then go for it.  But taking away power from those who learn to deal with the additional recoil is antithetical to the core premise of the sport.  

Edited December 3, 2016 by ATLDave

[teros135]

28 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

It is clear that those arguing for dispensing with major or boosting minor are basing their arguments on the premise that minor and major are supposed to have competitive parity in all divisions.  

That is a false premise.  That's not a core premise of the sport.*  Moreover, the fact that the 3 most popular divisions (Open, Limited, and Production) are the 3 divisions where there is NO parity between major/minor suggests that this is not something the competitors want.  It's certainly not something that is holding us back. 

Now, factor in the fact that the sport is run for and by people who are currently competing, and primarily by people competing in the 3 divisions where major/minor is a settled matter, and then consider that any change would requires massive new personal expenditures across the sport.

So this thread is about solving a non-problem by inflicting a huge amount of financial pain on the quasi-shareholders of this enterprise.  

Not.  Gonna.  Happen.  Get over it.  

* The premise is to balance speed, accuracy, and power.  If you can increase speed and accuracy enough by giving up some power, then go for it.  But taking away power from those who learn to deal with the additional recoil is antithetical to the core premise of the sport.  

Amen.  Sure, it's fun to have these theoretical conversations from time to time, but they usually reflect personal agenda and not a real consideration of the sport as a whole. Let's all go back to what we really need to do, like practicing  .

Edited December 3, 2016 by teros135

[IronArcher]

Amazing how simply altering the scoring advantage given to major mean that we are both trying to obsolete equipment, and writing different rules for each division.
Scores too high with the aforementioned numbers? Divide them by 2. Don't worry, your iPad can do the math for you.

Also still amazed that some feel major needs to have an admittedly unfair advantage so the big, burly, manly men, don't have to face the indignation of losing to a sissy shooting a cream puff 9mm. Don't want to mess with those core principles LOL!

And again, people don't flock to open and Limited simply because they have an unfair advantage when shooting major... they are the division of the hot rodders, and gear nuts. People don't shoot production because 9mm has an unfair advantage, they shoot it because it's easier to have a competitive rig for less $$$.


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[ATLDave]

3 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

Also still amazed that some feel major needs to have an admittedly unfair advantage so the big, burly, manly men, don't have to face the indignation of losing to a sissy shooting a cream puff 9mm. Don't want to mess with those core principles LOL!

It's not "admittedly unfair."  The rules are the same for everyone.  It's only "unfair" if you're too silly to figure out that playing in LTD means buying a major caliber gun, if you want to be competitive with shooters of similar skill.  That's "unfair" in the same way that allowing race holsters is "unfair" to those who want to use IWB concealment leather.  What plus-up should we give the leather holster guys to make sure there's parity between leather IWB holsters and race rigs?

And please re-read my prior post.  

[Gooldylocks]

Amazing how simply altering the scoring advantage given to major mean that we are both trying to obsolete equipment, and writing different rules for each division.
Scores too high with the aforementioned numbers? Divide them by 2. Don't worry, your iPad can do the math for you.

Also still amazed that some feel major needs to have an admittedly unfair advantage so the big, burly, manly men, don't have to face the indignation of losing to a sissy shooting a cream puff 9mm. Don't want to mess with those core principles LOL!

And again, people don't flock to open and Limited simply because they have an unfair advantage when shooting major... they are the division of the hot rodders, and gear nuts. People don't shoot production because 9mm has an unfair advantage, they shoot it because it's easier to have a competitive rig for less $$$.


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You laugh and call it an unfair advantage, yet you don't appear to want to add major to production. The whole point here is there are already so many divisions in which 9mm is dominant, why can 40 not have a division? 45 kinda sorta has a hold on single stack, and 40 gets limited, but 9mm has (as has been mentioned) revolver, production, carry optics, PCC (which if you are making a cost argument, is actually one of the cheapest), SS, and open.

The comment of you would have to have different rules for each division is based on the fact SS major would get dropped like a bad of rocks. No one would choose major over minor with 2 more rounds and even closer scoring.

[Gooldylocks]

It's not "admittedly unfair."  The rules are the same for everyone.  It's only "unfair" if you're too silly to figure out that playing in LTD means buying a major caliber gun, if you want to be competitive with shooters of similar skill.  That's "unfair" in the same way that allowing race holsters is "unfair" to those who want to use IWB concealment leather.  What plus-up should we give the leather holster guys to make sure there's parity between leather IWB holsters and race rigs?

And please re-read my prior post.  

Yes. Exactly. Equal skill shooters do have an equal chance of winning, if they don't make a stupid decision.

[IronArcher]

The rules are not the same for everyone. You get a scoring advantage for shooting major.
It is admittedly an unfair advantage as evidenced by both the complaints that it isn't supposed to be fair (core principals and all), and the hyperbole associated with any changes that might bring some parity (obsoleting gear, making different scoring rules for each class etc).
The only change I have suggested is modifying the current scoring advantage given to major, not eliminating that advantage.

The only "huge pain" some members might feel, is being beaten by a "sissy" who shot better than they did.

[Gooldylocks]

I don't understand how you are so dense as to not see that you WOULD obsolete every SS major gun, at a minimum. There is no question about that, it is the facts. If the board went even slightly to far, and hamstrung major too much, then all those limited major guns would be obsolete. This would also require a complete rework of the classification system. High hit factors would probably all need to change, except in open.

If you want true competitive equity you need to issue everyone the same equipment at the beginning of the match, and that's what you have to use. Glock 17, uncle mikes holster and 2 double mag pouches. Gotta shoot the same ammo too. Certainly no race holsters would be allowed. Double belt systems? Only if you give one to every single competitor.

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[IronArcher]

See above for an example of hyperbole.


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[Gooldylocks]

Not at all. That is 100% true. You said people already don't shoot minor in single stack because if the scoring disadvantage, which is patently false. More and more people are switching to minor because it is so much better than major. Make the scoring even closer, there is no other option.

Also, yes the rules are the same for everyone. They are in this funny red book that says "USPSA Handgun Rules" on it. Some people can disagree with the rules and not play to their own advantage, but it doesn't mean they aren't the rules. Just means you are being dumb.

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[IronArcher]

Looking at SS Nats.
Of the top 20, 1 shot minor (and took 20th)
Top 50, 7 minor.
The bottom 20, 13 were minor.
Bottom 50, 30 minor.
Yep, looks like THAT one is dialed in perfectly [emoji849]

[DeweyH]

What we need is a new division.  "Limited Minor".  

[Gooldylocks]

Looking at SS Nats.
Of the top 20, 1 shot minor (and took 20th)
Top 50, 7 minor.
The bottom 20, 13 were minor.
Yep, looks like THAT one is dialed in perfectly [emoji849]


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The fact that you even looked at SS nats proves how out of touch you are. That match isn't even a real USPSA match, the single stack society hosts it and deliberately sets all the stages for minor to be at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. You lose, come again

[Gooldylocks]

Of the Area matches this year;

Minor won: A4, A8, and A5. 

Major won: A3 (5 of the top 10 shooting minor), A7 (4 of the top 10 shooting minor), A1 (with 4 minor in top 10), A6 (2 minor in top 10) and A2 (1 minor in top 10)

3 of 8 is pretty dang close to a 50:50 split, but you know, I could start pulling local and sectional results to prove just how wrong you are if you would like. 

 

If minor scored closer to major, then major would go the way of the dodo, no question.

[wtturn]

You fellows wanting to achieve parity between minor and major in limited division remind me of the folks who knew the rules of the recent election going in and when they did not get the result they wanted, suddenly wanted to alter or abolish the electoral college.

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[Gooldylocks]

5 minutes ago, wtturn said:

You fellows wanting to achieve parity between minor and major in limited division remind me of the folks who knew the rules of the recent election going in and when they did not get the result they wanted, suddenly wanted to alter or abolish the electoral college.

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[IronArcher]

I guess I need to see where SSS put out the memo that stages need to be designed for minor to be at a significant disadvantage.



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[Gooldylocks]

They love their 45's, and I don't blame them for that. But they shouldn't be in charge of designing stages for what is supposed to be the premier single stack match of the year. It is an extremely well known fact that the stages at SS nats always favor major. Foley says that should change for 2017, as they are going to reign in the control the SSS has over that match. How long have you been shooting USPSA? You mentioned that you are going to start shooting primarily USPSA and less IDPA, which makes me wonder if maybe you just are too new to know how biased that match is towards major. 

 

Just for giggles because I am bored on a saturday morning, I compiled a list of 17 level 2 matches.

Minor won high SS in 41% of cases. Over the entire top 10 for all 17 matches, minor took 40% of the slots.  Without looking at stage diagrams to see if the stages of those matches greatly favored one or the other (I doubt it, since that was just a random sample off of the USPSA results page), I would say that is a pretty even split. 

[gavagai]

I kind of agree with both sides a bit ..

1. Minor (in major divisions) was not about fairness. It was about access (which is a worthwhile goal on its merits).
2. Shooting minor is not "unfair" (because you don't have to), but it *is* competitively disadvantaged (probably deliberately, I don't know the history)
3. Major PF is a historical anomaly, presumably based on the original ideas of what an "acceptable" round was in the 70s (reasonable minds can differ about that, but I don't think you can argue that the same consensus exists today).
4. Let's not forget minor PF is ridiculous too - 125 PF is so soft it pretty much requires reloading or custom commercial competition loads to get there and I've read that 9mm rounds in the old days were hotter than they are now - so I suspect that was probably an effort to be fair.

38 super and 9 major only exist for Open sport shooting (and Open means open). 45ACP will never die because it has a champion, but it's already becoming a boutique round and expensive. 40S&W looks pretty tenuous long term, although it would take a while to die if it does. Looks to me like 9mm will be more and more ubiquitous and more and more relatively dominant (FBI, demographics, ballistics, cost etc). I can see a similar, but not as dramatic trend towards optics.

Major, and the divisions we have, are the way it is. There is a strong case for keeping it the way it is for the reasons elaborated above like obsolescence and consistency. That doesn't make it make sense though - that would be a different argument. Car controls are ergonomically ridiculous, but there are very strong reasons not to change them. That doesn't make them any less ridiculous.

I don't have any specific proposals, and I get that change would be very hard and painful, but I get a bad vibe about where we are now. Here's the thing. Ten years down the road do we want to be a bunch of broke old guys fighting over 40 cal cases on the stages and shooting with iron sights that we can't see? Things can be great one day and gone the next. Ask Blockbuster.

[ATLDave]

3 hours ago, IronArcher said:

The only "huge pain" some members might feel, is being beaten by a "sissy" who shot better than they did.

I don't know who you're quoting in the second part of that sentence.  It certainly wasn't me.  In fact, I have been beaten, quite soundly, by someone shooting limited minor.  More than once I have gotten to shoot with a very high level 3 Gun pro, and he just ran his 9mm 2011 (certainly not an "accessible" gun to budget-constrained, but what he used for his primary shooting sport).  He usually waxes me.  Because he's faster and more accurate than me, even though I'm getting more points for shooting a higher PF.  I have no problem with that.  

What I think is silly is the starting fallacy that there is supposed to be parity between PF's within a division, and that the lack of such parity in the 3 most popular divisions means we need to change them.  F*** that.  That's dumb as hell.  

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, gavagai said:

40S&W looks pretty tenuous long term, a

LOL!  Yeah, tens of millions of guns in circulation are just going into the trash.  40 has orders of magnitudes more popularity than 38 super ever did... and we still have an entire division built mostly around 38 super.  

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, wtturn said:

You fellows wanting to achieve parity between minor and major in limited division remind me of the folks who knew the rules of the recent election going in and when they did not get the result they wanted, suddenly wanted to alter or abolish the electoral college.

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Are you a lawyer too ?

[wtturn]

Not a lawyer, but I know how to formulate what we call an "analogy". If you are unfamiliar with that term, you can Google it and find out what it means.

At the risk of further confusing you, I did find it amusing that you chose to respond to my post with a non sequitur, to wit: a classic scene from South Park which in itself depicts a famous non sequitur. Well done indeed!

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[teros135]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

LOL!  Yeah, tens of millions of guns in circulation are just going into the trash.  40 has orders of magnitudes more popularity than 38 super ever did... and we still have an entire division built mostly around 38 super.  

...and one populated mainly by .40 (Limited, where USPSA 2106 stats indicate that 90% of Nationals competitors shot .40 cal and 83% used 180 gr bullets).