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Compare limited and open speed


igolfat8

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35 minutes ago, zzt said:

One of the clubs I shoot at delights in setting a number of targets 3' away from the fault line and covering the entire bottom of the target up to the bottom of the upper A zone.  There are variations to this, but they all look pretty much the same.  The Limited gun is lightning.  Put the FO front on the upper A zone perf and fire.  You get Alphas.  With the high mounted dot, it is not so simple.  You have to decide how far above the top of the target to aim to avoid a NS.  When the distances go out to 5 or 7 yards you have to decide where on the target to aim.  All of that takes a split second longer than with the Limited gun.

So here you're saying the problem is it takes too long to aim with a dot because you'll hit an inch or two low at close targets. What if I told you that I know automatically where to aim with a dot on any target because I know precisely where a round will hit at any distance. It doesn't take a split second longer for me to put the dot at the top of the upper a zone rather than the middle of the head. You're gonna have to do a lot better than this. Also, as a tip, shooting over your slide on partial targets is certainly going to end up biting you in the ass.

38 minutes ago, zzt said:

The second instance I noted is with very close targets where you are blazing by and hosing them.  If you are in some semblance of a normal shooting position, they are the same.  However, sometimes they are not.  Think running left at 45 degrees while engaging targets 90 or 100 degrees to your right.  NPA doesn't always apply here.  With the Limited gun you can clearly see all around the slide, and can simply look down the slide and fire.  With the Open gun, that is not possible.  The frame mount thumb rest and the massive Slideride make that impossible.  So you are forced to use the dot.  Since your position is not normal, it takes a split second to acquire the dot.  Or, you have to change your approach to the stage, and that probably adds time.

First of all, if you know what you are doing it takes absolutely no longer at all to find the dot when shooting from an awkward position. Why? Because I practice from odd positions all the time. I look at the target, move my gun so it is between the target and my face, and the dot is there. Every...single...time. While you're shooting based off your slide, I have a nice crisp dot bouncing in my glass telling me exactly where my rounds are going. Just because you don't experience the same thing doesn't mean that the dot is somehow inferior to irons for close targets. The emperor has no clothes.

The comical part of all this is you're trying to strengthen your position by saying "well I can just aim down the slide with a limited gun" which is the exact same thing as what we do with an open gun - we look over the slide at the target, it just so happens that doing this properly puts the dot in the center of the glass. Have you paused to think of why shooting over the slide is an advantage over irons on close stuff? If you're going off your irons you are aligning 3 different things with your eye....the target, the front sight, and the rear sight. If you're ignoring your sights and going off the slide, you're aligning 2 things with your eye, the target and the slide. This is certainly a bit faster than using your sights, but also less precise. Now with the dot you are also only aligning only 2 things with your eye, the target and the dot. It takes no longer to use the dot than it does to aim over the slide, the difference here is you don't lose the precision with a dot that you lose by aiming over the slide. You seem to think for some reason that it's difficult or slow to put the gun on target, see red, and pull the trigger. The only way you can think this is if you're needing to hunt for the dot which by default means you're lacking proficiency with it. If you are lacking proficiency with the dot your opinion on it's efficacy is irrelevant and unfounded.

Out of curiosity, what class are you?

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On 11/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, abb1 said:

OMG, I am not too sure of the intent of this post, whether too knock someone down, but you are so wrong. Even the most accomplished shooters aim. Lol, If you shoot a plate at 20 yds without aiming, you will be there for a while. 

That was arcasm :P.  Of course you have to aim. 

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1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

Out of curiosity, what class are you?

Guessing here ... he's just inside C, joined USPSA this year.  Give him some time. 

On another note, we can take a look at the HHFs for the classifiers on azshooters.org.  In most cases the HHF for Open is higher than for LImited, more so for the classifiers that have a lot of partials (both near and farther out).  And look at a pure "hoser" classifier like Can You Count, where the targets are at 10 feet or less; the HHFs are the same for Lim and Open, not less for Open (because it isn't actually harder to aim an Open gun). 

I'm with Jake on this one and will add my own twist, from experience - if the gun is set up in the way that works best for you, Open provides a clean sight picture and is fast to get on target.  If you're not seeing the dot on those "hoser" targets, you don't have the right index.  You may get As because you're so close, but if you're not seeing your dot (the Lim fiber optic or the Open dot) you're not on index. 

And, Jake, for me I find my index a whole lot faster with the lower dot of the "micro" scope (RTS2 or sideways Slideride).  It's just how it works, for me (I shoot both irons and dot, so my index is closer to the slide, apparently).  And it's not for a lack of practice, both dry and live fire.  I think everybody's brain just works differently.  I'm guessing that for zzt the irons are more familiar, too, and so they work better for him (at least for now; more practice, who knows?). 

Edited by teros135
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He is a C in open, U in limited A96961. 

So he's probably not dry firing and dot hunting is the norm, just a guess obviously.

 

Dude is 69, I hope when I'm 69 I'm still out there blasting away. Age may be a determining factor of his issues with speed and irons vs. dots. 

Edited by ShortBus
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2 hours ago, teros135 said:

And, Jake, for me I find my index a whole lot faster with the lower dot of the "micro" scope (RTS2 or sideways Slideride).  It's just how it works, for me (I shoot both irons and dot, so my index is closer to the slide, apparently).  And it's not for a lack of practice, both dry and live fire.  I think everybody's brain just works differently.  I'm guessing that for zzt the irons are more familiar, too, and so they work better for him (at least for now; more practice, who knows?). 

I get where you're coming from for sure. I think your diagnosis of index being tuned more towards irons is absolutely correct. It's 100% a matter of training and proficiency regardless of how far the dot is above the barrel. Sure, the closer the dot is to the bore axis the easier it is to switch between irons and the dot, but given the proper amount of work you can tune yourself in to practically anything (and the better you are the less work will be required). The only reason I use a side mounted scope is to eliminate possible ejection issues. The difference between the side mount and the conventional mount has made no difference to my shooting other than a slightly different gun position at extension.

5 minutes ago, ShortBus said:

He is a C in open, U in limited A96961. 

So he's probably not dry firing and dot hunting is the norm, just a guess obviously.

Dude is 69, I hope when I'm 69 I'm still out there blasting away. Age may be a determining factor of his issues with speed and irons vs. dots. 

Sure, and that's about what I expected. I believe that he's experiencing a difference, but he's not going to sell me that the dot is the problem.

Edited by Jake Di Vita
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Actually ShortBus, I do a lot of dry firing for exactly that reason.  I have zero problem going from irons to slide mounted dots, but had a huge problem with the frame mounted upright slide ride.  I shot my first match in Open one week after i got the pistol.  It was find the dot a lot of the time.  The second match was better.  By the third I had practiced enough that the dot was always where it was expected.  Now it's not a problem until I have to go back to a slide mounted dot.  That's why I'm having a reflex sight mounted on the slide this Winter.  I just hate all that superstructure and mass up there.

BTW, the reason I'm U in Limited is because I signed up at the first match last year, but the club never sent the money in.  So all the classifiers didn't count.  I called USPSA directly this year to join and eliminate that problem.  I shot "outlaw"  USPSA matches for years with both irons and dots, so I'm no stranger to USPSA style shooting.  BTW2, I won't be C for long.

Jake, it is not the dot that is the problem.  It is the mount and honkin' big sight that is.

Edited by zzt
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18 minutes ago, zzt said:

Jake, it is not the dot that is the problem.  It is the mount and honkin' big sight that is.

It really isn't. I literally don't even notice the stuff you're saying distracts you...

That's fine though...if that's what you're determined to believe, go for it.

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The very good shooters I was referring to seem to want to look at the dot rather than the target. I'm not talking about focal distance. More like watching your mouse pointer as you move it across the computer screen instead of looking at the icon you want and just clicking on it.

I'm certainly not a years experienced open shooter, I only bumbled into A class this year. I catch myself over aiming from time to time, just like I sometimes fail to respect the target and nail one of those pesky no-shoots. But that's on me.

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33 minutes ago, busdriver02 said:

The very good shooters I was referring to seem to want to look at the dot rather than the target. I'm not talking about focal distance. More like watching your mouse pointer as you move it across the computer screen instead of looking at the icon you want and just clicking on it.

Hmm...Most of the GMs I've talked to have said they focus on the target and superimpose the dot. I do the same. I'm not sure how you aren't talking about focal distance, since most of the time the glass of the scope and the target do require different focal points to be crisp (part of the benefit of the dot is it doesn't have to be focused on to call shots easily). The analogy of the mouse pointer doesn't make sense to me because the mouse pointer and the rest of the monitor are at the same distance, unlike the target and the scope.

Edited by Jake Di Vita
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In theory, the dot should be at a focal distance of "infinity," right? As to the "good shooters" I meant good with iron sights and inexperienced with a dot.

In any event, the mouse pointer analogy is kind of how I think about it. I don't think about the pointer or even really look at it directly, unless I'm trying to get the tip of the pointer on a specific pixel to line up something in a graphics program. The only time I ever look at the dot is group shooting type precision.

Maybe another way of saying it is normally the dot is a subconscious extension that moves around in the periphery.

Either way, I don't disagree with you that the goal is the dot is just "there" without effort.

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13 minutes ago, busdriver02 said:

In theory, the dot should be at a focal distance of "infinity," right? As to the "good shooters" I meant good with iron sights and inexperienced with a dot.

Ya, in theory that's correct. Practically, I notice the dot is fuzzier when I'm focusing on the target but the dot usually covers such a small area of the target that the fuzziness doesn't matter.

18 minutes ago, busdriver02 said:

Maybe another way of saying it is normally the dot is a subconscious extension that moves around in the periphery.

Sure, that works for me.

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I've never been able to focus(distance wise) on anything other than the target without rediculous double vision. Dots just seemed to click for me in comparison. I've been struggling to find a satisfactory explanation for a relative that espoused the slow at close range thing.

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2 minutes ago, busdriver02 said:

I've never been able to focus(distance wise) on anything other than the target without rediculous double vision. Dots just seemed to click for me in comparison. I've been struggling to find a satisfactory explanation for a relative that espoused the slow at close range thing.

Ya the people that talk about the slow at close range are struggling to find a satisfactory explanation too, I'm yet to hear one that survives any amount of scrutiny. Just one of the many often repeated myths of shooting.

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Just now, busdriver02 said:

True. I guess my instructor side keeps trying to find the right way to get through to a doubter.

As does the instructor in me...I always want to help (which is why I have like 15 posts in this thread lol). I've been teaching people how to lift and how to shoot for half my life now. Sometimes there are just people that you can't get through to no matter what you say. Fortunately it doesn't happen often.

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13 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

Not Gooldylocks, and since you didn't get it... he is a GM. Just saying bro :D

Yeah I guess I don't get it because I just re-read this thread and still missed where he was talking about his focal point while shooting? Maybe you can be a bro and show me. Even if he did say that, my technique and thoughts have changed significantly between hitting gm over 10 years ago and today. The most skilled and experienced open shooters that I know focus on the target.

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Jake:
316a43ee24ea475b78425de72e23fecf.jpg

But anyway, I would say I generally subscribe to the mouse pointer theory as much as anything, but I definitely shoot decidedly dot focused on hard/tight shots. But that doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.

So, to recap;
Limited = slower or potentially as fast as open, but not faster

If you feel like open is slower than limited, practice more

If the super structure and assorted crap hanging off your gun distracts you while shooting open, practice more

If you feel like your index is off, don't buy a new optic or mount to fix it, just practice more

Don't complain/ask silly questions on the Internet, just practice more.

Jake/Teros/3gunDQ/anyone else.... did I miss anything?

Edited by Gooldylocks
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