Uprange starts

[frag316]

So I shot my first PCC match yesterday (22 Oct 16), which featured two or three uprange starts, including the classifier.  When I first looked at the proposed rules/best practices document, it explicitly stated "no uprange starts," or words to that effect.

 

After shooting the match, my question is "why?"

 

Intellectually, I understand why--you have a loaded gun that's not in a holster, so the most safe way of dealing with uprange starts is to not allow them.  Having done movement around people with loaded guns as part of my military background--including a drill that looks a lot like an uprange start--I don't know that I feel there's enough difference between a loaded PCC and a holstered pistol starting uprange to warrant a change to the start position.   As long as a competitor doesn't swing the gun to his/her shoulder until they're past perpendicular to the side berm/wall--much like a pistol competitor doesn't start their draw until their holster is perpendicular to the side berm/wall--they won't break the 180 and (more importantly) should not sweep a spectator or an RO.

 

Am I missing something here?  I'm not married to the idea of uprange starts, I'm just trying to understand the rationale.

[MemphisMechanic]

The simplest solution is that USPSA has always rigidly enforce the 180 rule regarding muzzle discipline, and you can't do that with an uprange start.

[ohsevenflhx]

The start for 09-02 Diamond cutter is facing up range. Here is the written stage briefing. 

The start position is standing in box A facing uprange with your toes against 
the marks on the back of the box. Your hands will be relaxed at your sides. 
Your gun will be loaded and holstered. PCC start position is standing in Box 
A, facing downrange, stock on belt, muzzle downrange, loaded carbine held 
in both hands with safety on.
On the start signal, turn then draw and engage each target with only 2 
rounds each from within the fault lines. No turn for PCC.

So no up range starts for PCC.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ohsevenflhx

[rowdyb]

Safety circle doesn't exist in uspsa. I agree with you. If I can be trusted not to remove a pistol from a holster until I'm pointed in the right direction I should be trusted with a carbine in my hands to not be raised  until i've turned and am in the right direction as well. but i'm not in charge so i'll  do what they say.

[rowdyb]

now surrender starts, i can understand the difference there.

[frag316]

17 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

The simplest solution is that USPSA has always rigidly enforce the 180 rule regarding muzzle discipline, and you can't do that with an uprange start.

Why not?  The default position for starts with a PCC is low ready.  If the muzzle is pointed at the ground, it shouldn't be a problem.

13 hours ago, ohsevenflhx said:

The start for 09-02 Diamond cutter is facing up range. Here is the written stage briefing. 

The start position is standing in box A facing uprange with your toes against 
the marks on the back of the box. Your hands will be relaxed at your sides. 
Your gun will be loaded and holstered. PCC start position is standing in Box 
A, facing downrange, stock on belt, muzzle downrange, loaded carbine held 
in both hands with safety on.
On the start signal, turn then draw and engage each target with only 2 
rounds each from within the fault lines. No turn for PCC.

So no up range starts for PCC.

Why is the stock on the belt?  That makes no sense to me.

11 hours ago, rowdyb said:

now surrender starts, i can understand the difference there.

Oh, sure--difficult to keep wrists above shoulders when you're holding onto a gun with two hands.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, frag316 said:

Why not?  The default position for starts with a PCC is low ready.  If the muzzle is pointed at the ground, it shouldn't be a problem.

Devil's advocate: Would it be acceptable to start facing uprange, muzzle indexed on dirt, finger off trigger if you were holding a handgun? Why treat a gun with a longer barrel and a stock any differently?

The 180 is the 180 is the 180. That's always been this sport's most holy safety rule.

(I'm guessing the above is USPSA's reasoning)

Why start "stock on belt?" Well, because one of the other starting positions USPSA has experimented with in this provisional division has been 'port arms' and that is the easiest way to consistently enforce such a starting position.

Much like they simply require "wrists above shoulders" with handguns. Rather than try to make it look like a genuine surrender position, they use language that doesn't require RO's to subjectively decide how much you can game your hand positioning.

Remember, they're trying different things to see which ones work best in PCC. If and when they adopt the division permanently, they'll know which ones proved solid and which ones crashed and burned.

Edited October 24, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[Patrick Scott]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Devil's advocate: Would it be acceptable to start facing uprange, muzzle indexed on dirt, finger off trigger if you were holding a handgun? Why treat a gun with a longer barrel and a stock any differently?

The 180 is the 180 is the 180. That's always been this sport's most holy safety rule.

(I'm guessing the above is USPSA's reasoning)

Why start "stock on belt?" Well, because one of the other starting positions USPSA has experimented with in this provisional division has been 'port arms' and that is the easiest way to consistently enforce such a starting position.

Much like they simply require "wrists above shoulders" with handguns. Rather than try to make it look like a genuine surrender position, they use language that doesn't require RO's to subjectively decide how much you can game your hand positioning.

Remember, they're trying different things to see which ones work best in PCC. If and when they adopt the division permanently, they'll know which ones proved solid and which ones crashed and burned.

I agree with all of this

[Corey]

To start uprange and NOT break the 180, the gun has to be pointing behind the shooter, which is 1. weird and 2.not the safest thing in the world, especially when said shooter is going to turn around soon and if they dont move the muzzle, its still behind them, except now over the 180 the wrong way. Easiest solution is what they've done so far with downrange starts. It seems to be working well from the couple matches I've been to with PCCs.

As a stage designer, you could always have the firearm laid flat on a table (goes for pistol shooters too obviously) then have the shooter behind the table, facing uprange. Not exactly the same skill set being tested, but you get the idea. 

 

 

[frag316]

6 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Devil's advocate: Would it be acceptable to start facing uprange, muzzle indexed on dirt, finger off trigger if you were holding a handgun? Why treat a gun with a longer barrel and a stock any differently?

The 180 is the 180 is the 180. That's always been this sport's most holy safety rule.

(I'm guessing the above is USPSA's reasoning)

Why start "stock on belt?" Well, because one of the other starting positions USPSA has experimented with in this provisional division has been 'port arms' and that is the easiest way to consistently enforce such a starting position.

Much like they simply require "wrists above shoulders" with handguns. Rather than try to make it look like a genuine surrender position, they use language that doesn't require RO's to subjectively decide how much you can game your hand positioning.

Remember, they're trying different things to see which ones work best in PCC. If and when they adopt the division permanently, they'll know which ones proved solid and which ones crashed and burned.

Well, you're comparing apples to oranges.  Does any legal start position allow you to face downrange with a drawn and loaded pistol in your hands? (EDIT: Hint--8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touch-ing with the lower arms).  Said rule is removed in the PCC Rules Addendum posted on the website.)

I guess I don't find "low ready" to be that difficult to enforce consistently, since it starts with the muzzle at a 45-degreeish angle with the point of the bottom of the stock in the shoulder.  And I did not read "stock on the belt" as "port arms."  To military guys, "port arms" is very different from that ("FOUR INCHES FROM YOUR CHEST, PYLE!!! FOUR INCHES!!!").  I'm not sure you'd find any rifle drill that classifies "port arms" as the muzzle pointing anywhere but at an angle pointing over your left shoulder and the stock pointing at your right hip, with the rifle held parallel to the body.  So that terminology doesn't work.  If you want the stock of the gun touching the belt and the muzzle pointed downrange, then they need to draw a diagram and specify that as the default start position.

I get that it's a provisional division.

That's why I asked the question.

5 hours ago, Corey said:

To start uprange and NOT break the 180, the gun has to be pointing behind the shooter, which is 1. weird and 2.not the safest thing in the world, especially when said shooter is going to turn around soon and if they dont move the muzzle, its still behind them, except now over the 180 the wrong way. Easiest solution is what they've done so far with downrange starts. It seems to be working well from the couple matches I've been to with PCCs.

As a stage designer, you could always have the firearm laid flat on a table (goes for pistol shooters too obviously) then have the shooter behind the table, facing uprange. Not exactly the same skill set being tested, but you get the idea. 

 

 

That is absolutely not true.  If you hold the gun tight to your body with the muzzle pointed at the ground, it won't break the 180.  Nor will you sweep yourself, because the muzzle will also point over your muzzle side knee, but will not cross it.

 

And I think table starts for everyone is NOT the way to solve the problem.

 

I'd really be interested in hearing from someone like Troy on this, because I haven't seen much discussion on PCC other than "go out and shoot it" from anyone in the USPSA leadership.

Edited October 24, 2016 by frag316

[StealthyBlagga]

Just start facing downrange. Who cares if it is different from handgun... you are scored separately anyway. I don't see the fascination with facing uprange.

[frag316]

Like I said, I'm just asking the question.  I'm just unsure of the overall reasoning for the difference.

[Patrick Scott]

6 hours ago, frag316 said:

Like I said, I'm just asking the question.  I'm just unsure of the overall reasoning for the difference.

Id venture a guess that the reasoning is
With a handgun uprange start the firearm is never in the shooters hands, clear of the holster, trigger exposed while facing uprange. If those things happen you are DQed for a safety violation.