very rookie caliber and general questions

[steviesterno]

Hey all, 

 

I've been shooting much more slowly recently, and enjoying some bolt 22 at the range rather than 3 gun at the moment. I also took my in-laws shooting and they had a blast (no pun intended). They happen to know a guy that builds precision bolt guns back home, and they are thinking about picking one up for me. 

So I'm thinking what caliber would be a good option. I currently only shoot 223, but if I get a really BA bolt gun, I'm thinking I would want a caliber with more oomph and I could hunt with as well. Up to deer size, but I know this isn't a hunting forum, but that's the largest I would go after. Maybe groundhogs at distance as well, but more paper than anything. I'm also in process of buying some more cans, and I'm leaning towards a SilencerCo Hybrid or Liberty Mystic. Either way, it would be good for anything up to 338 lapua or 45-70. I know the best option would be dedicated, but I don't think this will be a high volume gun. 

I'm leaning towards 308 since I could get surplus ammo cheap enough to practice with. Not sure I want get into hand loading, at least not right off the bat. 

Any thoughts on what to pick up? Any good beginner stuff to read and get an idea about? I will have to start reading about real glass, coming from a 1-4 on my game gun and a Vortex on my 22. I think this might be an expensive way to send lead down range

 

[TonytheTiger]

Couple thoughts for you:

Using surplus ammo to practice with a precision gun will become frustrating fast. When you have a gun that should shoot 1/2 MOA and your using 2 MOA ammo the money saved on the ammo doesn't look so good anymore.

There's nothing wrong with 308, just like there's nothing wrong with a Corvette with an automatic transmission. But if your really into guns or driving both of those things seem kind of lame. Its definitely a functional caliber but if you get sucked into the long range precision shooting games you'll end up wanting to re barrel the 308. 

If your not planning to handload (you really should) and are willing to try something ballistically superior to 308, 6.5 Creedmoor is for you. Factory ammo is plentiful, reasonably affordable and usually very good. There are plenty of other great cartridges in the short action family (260, 243, 6mm Creedmoor, 6mm/6.5x47 Lapua etc.) but none of them have great factory match/long range ammo selection and require hand loading to really enjoy.

[davsco]

yeah 6.5 creedmore is the way to go if you're not reloading.  hornady amax and eld are relatively very reasonably priced.  and for hunting they have eld-x.

308 is definitely a step down ballisticly (or ballistically?) but there are a LOT more ammo choices from hunting to precision to plinking.  now if we're just talking precision shooting at a couple of hundred yards, not that big of a deal, but if you want to shoot out to 1k or more, then the favorable ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 will definitely help.

[ltdmstr]

6.5s and some others are what all the cool kids are running.  But there's nothing wrong with 308 for out to about 800 yards are so.  I have a 308 that's literally 1/4 MOA with factory ammo (FGMM).  Yeah, it's not going to reach out as far as some of the "better" cartridges, and maybe doesn't do quite as well with wind.  But ammo is cheap and readily available and barrel life is usually significantly longer than the alternatives.  Try checking the snipershide/scout forum.  Lots of good info.

[lee blackman]

6.5creedmore.... definitely 

 

You want to hunt small varmint and up to deer, want precision and performance.   Check out the .243win.  Make sure the gunsmith puts a barrel adequate to stabilize heavier projectiles, long enough to get adequate burn time, and your in business.  I mean pushing a 107gr BTHP with a .525 BC at 3000+FPS isn't a joke...  Like 1400+ yard supersonic, laser flat trajectory.  You can run lighter bullets for varmints, or bonded core soft points for game like deer.

I'd say a GA Tempest Action in a KMW Sentinel Stock with a 27" medium palma contour Bartlein or Hawk Hill Marksman contour barrel, throw a Vortex Razor HD II 4.5-27x scope on it, and you can do everything from PRS competition, to prairie dog exploding, to deer dropping, to just plain showing off...

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by lee blackman

[Absocold]

I'm an old fart that loves me some bolt gun action, but these days I'm not sure why anyone bothers. Today's autos are within a hair's breadth of equaling bolt gun accuracy. It's only the single-load-for-maximum-accuracy crowd that needs a bolt gun anymore. That hole in the X ring really doesn't care what sort of action the cartridge was fired from.

 

If you have your heart set on .308 then get it, nothing wrong with that one, it'll still reach 1,200 yards with authority. It's just been eclipsed by the new hotness (6.5CM / 6.5BR) at all the serious matches. If you're not completely sure about the .308, get the creedmore. It's gotten popular enough that there's plenty of loads/bullets to choose from and it'll be around a while.

 

Get the biggest and best suppressor you can afford. It will work on smaller calibers. A small can won't work on bigger.

[steviesterno]

thanks for the input so far everyone. since I'm going to be very new to it, and shooting distances under 800 yards (probably 400 more than not)is it worth it to look to exotic calibers? 

I'm nervous for weird stuff. I know in rural PA you can still grab 308 at the hardware stores, not sure if that's true about 6.5 or anything. It's another reason I'm not sold on 300 BO for ARs. Looks great for in close, but not if I have to search everywhere to find it. 

[Absocold]

300 blk for any use other than close range suppressed is a waste of time. But that's a flamewar for a different thread.

 

As far as thinking of anything not available at your local hardware store as "exotic", remember that if it's accuracy you're after you won't be buying anything they would stock anyway. High quality match ammo isn't found there in any caliber.

 

if you're only shooting 400 yards at deer and smaller, there are hundreds of calibers to choose from.

 

i think that considering your experience level and intended use, you might be happier with the .308, save the creedmore for when (if?) you ever want to up your game. By then you may skip it and go straight for something nuts like .408 CheyTac. 

[steviesterno]

15 hours ago, Absocold said:

300 blk for any use other than close range suppressed is a waste of time. But that's a flamewar for a different thread.

 

As far as thinking of anything not available at your local hardware store as "exotic", remember that if it's accuracy you're after you won't be buying anything they would stock anyway. High quality match ammo isn't found there in any caliber.

 

if you're only shooting 400 yards at deer and smaller, there are hundreds of calibers to choose from.

 

i think that considering your experience level and intended use, you might be happier with the .308, save the creedmore for when (if?) you ever want to up your game. By then you may skip it and go straight for something nuts like .408 CheyTac. 

I'm trying to build my SBR in 300 suppressed for a CQ kind of house gun. I know the limitations there and I'm OK with it. 

 

I've heard long range can be super addictive. that's why I'm thinking getting something cheap enough to start. If it turns out I like it, I can go crazy and get something really designed for it, cost be dammed. I guess I'm trying to decide what a good starter would be but still maintain it's usefulness. 

[TonytheTiger]

Have you looked at the cost of match 308 ammo vs. 6.5 Creedmoor ammo? It's the same...

[Absocold]

There is basically no cost difference between .308 and Creedmoor. Rifle cost is the same, match ammo cost is the same. The only real differences are:

 

1. People buying a Creedmoor are wanting more accuracy so will spend more for a higher quality barrel, action, trueing, etc. This results in Creedmore rifles seeming to be more expensive.

 

2. There is no "cheap" factory ammo in Creedmoor, while the .308 has some cheaper options from surplus and military overruns. But you're not using that stuff for hunting or shooting long range anyway, it's blasting ammo.

 

3. Creedmoor barrels are good for 2000-3000 before they open up over 1 MOA. The .308 is good for maybe 5,000. These are reasonable estimates, ymmv. But for competition shooting that's about par for the course.

 

The reason everyone is steering you away from .308 towards Creedmoor is that in both drop and wind deflection, the Creedmoor is about 25% better. Drop doesn't matter as much, it's easily corrected for in the age of laser rangefinders. But the wind! That's where matches are won and lost and a 25% improvement is huge. The tradeoff is reduced barrel life. But the cost of a new competition barrel is insignificant compared to the total cost of the ammo needed to shoot out a barrel so it's not really an issue. However the cost is real, so if you want to do full magazine rage dumps on a regular basis in addition to precision shooting, get a .308 and save some money on barrels.

 

Recoil? Creedmoor. Feeding reliability in a semi-auto? .308. Brass life? Creedmoor. Hunting anything bigger than a coyote at 800+ yards? Neither, now you need something like a 7mm RemMag or .300 WinMag.

 

Make a list of exactly what you want out of the cartridge. If it's deer at 100 yards, some range sessions and varmint popping at 400-800 and occasionally a few shots out to 1,000 on paper, then the .223 you already own can do all that. It may need some tuning, handloads and maybe a better barrel, but it can do it.

[Hunter1998]

The 223 can do almost everything want to do. There is so many calibers that are great fir deer. It is hard to have one do it everything great. Look at what you do most of the time with the rifle and buy a caliber that fills that bill best. 

In the AR platform the 6.8spc would be able to do everything you mentioned. Low cost in bulk Ammo, target shoot and hunt deer size with no issue. Also great self defense round. 

Good luck

[atvman400]

If you are thinking about ever shooting matches, check out the rules real quick.  To shoot F-class Target Rifle(F-TR) you will need .223 or .308.  A 6.5 creedmoor automatically puts you in open class, which can be an equipment race.  Sure you can say you're there just to have fun and don't need to be competitive but I'm sure as you know how addicting 3-gun is you will also get addicted and want to be competitive.  If you are going to get into reloading and buy dies and components, now is the time to do the research and get something that will last you for the foreseeable future instead of buying everything twice right away.  

I went 308 for a lot of the reasons above for my paper puncher. Easy to find factory match ammo that's reasonably priced, low recoil, great barrel life, easy to find reloading components, and lets me shoot F-TR at the local ranges.  If there were PRS style matches around me I would of really considered 6.5 creedmoor harder due to the better ballistics.