Open Gun Choice

[js1130146]

If you are going to shoot major in matches, shot major in practice. This is OPEN division. Consider every part in your gun a wear part that WILL need to be replaced at some point in the guns lifetime. It's just the nature of the beast

[teros135]

1 minute ago, js1130146 said:

If you are going to shoot major in matches, shot major in practice. This is OPEN division. Consider every part in your gun a wear part that WILL need to be replaced at some point in the guns lifetime. It's just the nature of the beast

Nicely said.  That's really the bottom line.  

[theWacoKid]

On 10/17/2016 at 10:33 AM, zzt said:

...

38SC will give you more, and better options for load development because there are more powder choices.

38SC will work the comp better and, more importantly, tune the load to get the feel you want.  It will also be quieter than 9mm Major.

38SC gives you more options for ports, poppels and comps, again because of the wider powder selection available.

38SC feeds better than 9MM.

9mm has ejection problems with vertical C-More mounts, even when offset.

If you are serious about climbing up in the shooter ranks, you should ALWAYS use new brass for match ammo (one smith).  So the cost delta between 38SC and 9mm becomes meaningless, because you can pick up your practice brass.

.....

.38 super comp does give you a few more options with powder choices, but in total that's about where the advantage ends.  .38 super is not going to "work the comp" (I hate that phrase) any better as you can tune up loads for both that match the gun as set up.  I think loudness boils down to the powder you run, the popple hole setup, and the pf you push.  Most of the insanely loud guns are using 3n38 and plenty holes, which turns out to be 38 super guns most often.  38 super doesn't give you more options for ports, popples, or comps.  I have 9mm guns with 3 1/8" holes, 6 3/16" holes, and 4 5/32" holes and all with different comps.  Don't really see the limit of options there.  38 super doesn't feed any better than 9mm as there is no magic difference between the rounds just simple geometry.  9mm has a bad rep for ejection issues as I believe this was started with smiths not knowing the tricks to the 9mm case geometry and ejecting range brass when 9mm guns where gaining traction.  The fact is there is no magic to an empty piece of 38 super brass being ejected and an empty piece of 9mm brass.  I've seen both guns choke and it's not about the caliber, that's irrelevant, it's about the quality of the gun as built matching the round it is designed to run.

I concede 38 super is easier to load for and may feel a little softer in the hand with a little less time spent in load development.  But that is the only real advantage for 38 super.

However, I don't think that adds up to anything on the clock.  I chose 9 because I knew I would practice more, always have ammo ready to go, and would not lose focus at matches digging around for brass.  Because trust me, if I paid for new brass I'd be that p.i.t.a scrounging around for every last piece and getting in everyone's way.  In fact, I shoot some new 9mm brass in practice and I won't leave the range if I know a single piece is still on the ground somewhere.  Not healthy.    

On top of that you can buy new brass for important matches cheaper for 9mm than 38.  You can also find cheap same headstamp brass for 9 that makes good major match loads.  But even so, if you take the time to pay attention to the brass you use and the ammo you make then 9mm brass will not be your problem.  

I don't mind anyone shooting 38 super, but just don't choose it for advantages that don't really exist.

I know I shoot more because I chose 9 and in the long run that's the only thing that actually matters.

[zzt]

Well, Waco, that may be your opinion, but it is not what the builders I talked to said.  

[theWacoKid]

zzt,

That's totally fine and I hear that take often so I understand where you're coming from.  I just want to make sure the opposing view point is out there and there is enough opposing information for everyone to see they need to decide for themselves and not everyone agrees with the old "tried and true".  I know a lot of shooters and builders feel the same way I do now that 9 major has been building a history and continually growing in popularity.  There is a reason.  I also know older gunsmiths that still insist that .38 super is the only option and 9mm major is "dangerous", "ruins brass", and "won't run".

So when I started I wanted to shoot .38 super pretty bad, but I crunched everything hard and it continually came back to the fact that in no way could I justify 38 super over what 9 major offered.  Save as much money as possible on brass and spend it on good bullets.  Bullets are the most expensive part of practice anyway so everything I can sacrifice to increase my bullet intake is a plus.  

I also am on pace for 40 matches this year.  At an average of 200 rounds per match I'm at 8000 pieces of lost brass at matches.  Shooting new every match puts me at $1040 in match brass while shooting range brass at the max I ever pay for it puts me at $240.  The extra $800 of practice ammo for the year puts me way ahead of any shooting advantage new brass at matches gives me especially when you don't fight brass related stoppages anyway.

[Bruce]

On 10/16/2016 at 9:22 AM, TerryO said:

The debate of 9mm vs .38SC is long and varied but mostly revolves around cost of brass. The difference in price is really not that great especially given that the .38SC can be reloaded more times extending its serviceable life. Hey, Open is undoubtedly the most expensive division to shoot, why obsess over a very small cost item like brass when compared to equipment, cost of traveling to matches and registration fees. 

+1

I just had a McLearn Custom Gun built in .38SC.  Brass is more expensive, but if cost of ammo is what drives shooting (and when I was young it was) then build a nice Ruger rimfire open pistol and go conquer the many steel challenge matches that offer rimfire competition.  If there is anything more fun for less cost in shooting...I am not sure what it is.  I still enjoy it.  

Btw, the McLearn pistol is incredible.

[ScottieShootz]

I chose 38 purely because it's the cheaper of major ammo from Atlanta arms over 9major. 

[abb1]

I agree with Waco! Most matches, there is no time to pick up brass, so a 200 rd match, all that 38super brass is gone and has to be replaced. 9mm is either free from ranges or dirt cheap. I just picked up 1500 rds for $20. I have shot 38 super for two years earlier and I love it it, however, brass is an expense. With the power factor for major only being 160 for open class in IPSC, 9mm major is no longer an issue, so for the brass factor alone, it is well worth going to 9mm major. If brass was not a factor and 38 super was cheap and in abundance, I would go with 38 super. My 2 cents....

[Acsr]

I bought 38 super,  that was what was available in the classifieds when I was open shopping.   bought a perfectly tuned trubor,  it runs, I get 85 to 90% back of spent brass at local matches, and I have enough brass that when I shot the state match I didn't blink at the last pieces.   get what appeals to you and be happy with your choice, learn to shoot it and enjoy.   

[colt1911]

I had to make this decision last year and thus far I am extremely happy i went with 9major... the cost factor alone is a decision maker...

[MHitchcock]

The other thing to keep in mind with 38s vs 9mm is resale. If you are getting a pistol to get a taste of open with possible future plans to buy a full custom. Selling the 38s will be harder than an identical pistol in 9mm

[Gooldylocks]

The other thing to keep in mind with 38s vs 9mm is resale. If you are getting a pistol to get a taste of open with possible future plans to buy a full custom. Selling the 38s will be harder than an identical pistol in 9mm

Fact.

Well, Waco, that may be your opinion, but it is not what the builders I talked to said.  

That isn't opinion, that is hard fact. Except the ejection and feeding thing. I think there is merit to saying 38 is easier to tune to be 100%

If you are going to shoot major in matches, shot major in practice. This is OPEN division. Consider every part in your gun a wear part that WILL need to be replaced at some point in the guns lifetime. It's just the nature of the beast

Fact. In open, EVERYTHING is a wear item.

Well, I have decided to go with the Czechmate. I read that they had the barrel issues fixed, and now am awaiting for one to arrive. With any race gun, I ill play it smart and only shoot major rounds in competititons, so the gun should last and hold up. Thanks for all your input.

Cheers

Shoot major in practice so you can be used to the gun. Shooting minor in practice and major for matches is a recipe for awful performance.

Hey, Open is undoubtedly the most expensive division to shoot, why obsess over a very small cost item like brass when compared to equipment, cost of traveling to matches and registration fees. 

It's not a small cost, as has been shown. If you shoot a lot, brass cost is a huge delta between the two.

[GrumpyOne]

I would venture to say that Open IS NOT the most expensive division to shoot in anymore. Look at the cost of a really nice Limited gun versus the cost of a nice Open gun...not much difference there...and Open is decidedly cheaper to shoot than Limited major, as 40 caliber bullets generally cost more per 1k than 9mm (or 38s) bullets. Then we have the mags that go with the guns...sure an open mag can run you $150 or more for a 170mm...but you can also pay that much for a 140mm mag for Limited when you figure in new springs/followers/basepads, etc....and you need more than 2 in limited.

While the perception is that Open costs more to shoot and play in the division, the math really isn't there anymore.

[Butterpuc]

38 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I would venture to say that Open IS NOT the most expensive division to shoot in anymore. Look at the cost of a really nice Limited gun versus the cost of a nice Open gun...not much difference there...and Open is decidedly cheaper to shoot than Limited major, as 40 caliber bullets generally cost more per 1k than 9mm (or 38s) bullets. Then we have the mags that go with the guns...sure an open mag can run you $150 or more for a 170mm...but you can also pay that much for a 140mm mag for Limited when you figure in new springs/followers/basepads, etc....and you need more than 2 in limited.

While the perception is that Open costs more to shoot and play in the division, the math really isn't there anymore.

I believe it, a few years ago I was considering custom building a STI 40, and thought "why?, I can build an open gun for that and shoot 9mm"

[bigbob21]

Sounds to me like: open for serious, non-tinkerers = 2011
Open for non serious = Cz due to lack of upgrades in comps/grips, etc...
Open for tinkerers = cz

I like the tanfo platform for production... if I were going limited, I'd choose a Cz/tanfo as their already setup better than a "stock" sti variant
(Non custom shop type)

I want to go open maybe next year and it seems like 2011 is easier to do for the non machinest... (even though I love the tanfo/Cz style gun, I'd like to get the most from the gun and The comps and slides need work, so I hear)


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[js1130146]

1 hour ago, bigbob21 said:

Sounds to me like: open for serious, non-tinkerers = 2011
Open for non serious = Cz due to lack of upgrades in comps/grips, etc...
Open for tinkerers = cz

I like the tanfo platform for production... if I were going limited, I'd choose a Cz/tanfo as their already setup better than a "stock" sti variant
(Non custom shop type)

I want to go open maybe next year and it seems like 2011 is easier to do for the non machinest... (even though I love the tanfo/Cz style gun, I'd like to get the most from the gun and The comps and slides need work, so I hear)


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That Tanfo Gold Team makes me drool. It's just too bad it has so many holes in the barrel. Makes it kinda a non-starter for 9 major.

[abb1]

14 hours ago, js1130146 said:

That Tanfo Gold Team makes me drool. It's just too bad it has so many holes in the barrel. Makes it kinda a non-starter for 9 major.

I had an opportunity to buy a brand new never fired 'tanfo gold team' in 9mm, at $1K less than retail. However, the agony and cost of purchasing and fitting a new unported barrel to the Tanfo was not worth it IMO, so I went with a used Czechmate with no signs of wear. Not too sure if I made the right choice, but I know regardless, that I am going to have fun :).