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Open Gun Choice


abb1

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Hi All,

I am looking at getting into open as I shot that 20 years ago and had a blast. Looking at some of the choices out there, it is a choice between 38 Super and 9mm Major. I am looking at a Tanfoglio Gold Custom (only choice is 9mm Major) as I can get one tomorrow if I wanted to. Can you please give me any input that I may need. Is 38 Super a better choice for an open gun? I am just wondering, as I am reading a lot of posts about 9mm Major breaking slides and barrels in STI's and Czechmates. Does the Tanfoglio hold up a little better in that department, or should I stay away from 9mm Major all together, and go for a gun in 38 Super? Thanks

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Slides will eventually crack in major. More quickly if aggressively lightened. Most everything in open is a wear item. 

That being said, most people run 9mm to avoid having to scrounge for brass at matches. No real benefit to running 38 super anymore.

I would strongly consider a 2011 for open. More smiths able to work on them, more local shooters are likely to be able to help you sort out issues if you have any, and more parts/customization. 

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Hello: Look at a STI Tru Bor in 9mm. As you shoot this you will end up knowing what you like and don't like in an open gun. The Tru Bor can be moded along your open pistol journey. I have done quite a few of these over the years and find that they can be made a great open gun with just some machining and parts changing like most any open pistols. Thanks, Eric

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I was looking to get into Open about 4 months ago and asked the same question. I settled on 38 Super comp. I spoke with a few of the open guys at my club and one of the reasons I went with 38 is it tends to be a little softer than 9 at major PF. I get ammo from Atlanta Arms or Universal Ammo for the time being. I will be reloading after the first of the year. I went with the DVC Open and have been real happy with the setup. 

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The Gold Custom is a V12 port setup, all those ports vent so much gas that it's more difficult to safely reach 9mm major power factor. It can be done, but you have fewer powder/bullet options than with a normal compensator.

 

The 9major vs 38super debate is long and tedious. It basically boils down to that 38super is more expensive but has more load choices and more margin for error, 9major is cheaper and reloading supplies are more plentiful. Since they're loaded to the same power factor, wear and tear is similar. More people choose 9major because of cost and the ability to walk away from brass laying on the ground without wincing over the loss.

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2 minutes ago, Absocold said:

The Gold Custom is a V12 port setup, all those ports vent so much gas that it's more difficult to safely reach 9mm major power factor.

Thank you for that info! I was always wondering why these custom gun manufacturers cut ports in the barrels as this will reduce the pressures, losing velocities, forcing one to use a higher load to make major. I could be wrong, but isn't the idea to force as much gases to the end of the barrel for the comp to be effective? Having ports cut all along inside a barrel will have the pressures exiting to early for the comp to really be effective. Am I wrong? I wish someone with a tang pistol with a V8 or V12 setup can comment, as that is a huge factor. I like the CZ style of pistols, but I hear the czechmates have bad barrels where the lugs break after a while with major loads. I have a chance to get the Tango, but the ported barrel does kinda worry me. What are your thoughts? Maybe an STI Trubor in 9mm is the way to go as was suggested earlier.

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The Tanfo V12's were designed with 38super in mind. They make them in 9mm because there was a big enough demand and it is possible to make major.

 

You can never go wrong with a Trubor. They're not fancy but they work and work well. Shoot the crap out of it with no worries. It will sell very quickly if you later decide to upgrade (or just keep it as a backup gun).

 

The CK Arms Hardcore is another excellent starting gun for Open class on the 2011 platform.

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Czechmate used to be known for breaking barrel lugs, so much so the used to supply 3 barrels but I believe the lug has been beefed up to overcome this and I have not heard of any of these breaking. Would still be advisable to carry spare slide stop (supplied with gun) . I'm open to correction if anyone knows of newer ones breaking.

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10 hours ago, Absocold said:

The Gold Custom is a V12 port setup, all those ports vent so much gas that it's more difficult to safely reach 9mm major power factor. It can be done, but you have fewer powder/bullet options than with a normal compensator.

 

The 9major vs 38super debate is long and tedious. It basically boils down to that 38super is more expensive but has more load choices and more margin for error, 9major is cheaper and reloading supplies are more plentiful. Since they're loaded to the same power factor, wear and tear is similar. More people choose 9major because of cost and the ability to walk away from brass laying on the ground without wincing over the loss.

 

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There is an advantage to shooting the same platform as the other people you shoot with.

At my local club yesterday, a guy had. Stock II and forgot his holster.   If he had a 2011 platform there where 3 people with complete extra rigs.

Same with questions about the platform,  loads, what mags, how to setup the mags......

A Tribune is a good option, as are some of the semi stock guns from CK Arms or the DNC from STI.

On the other hand if all your local buddies are shooting Tanfos, go for it.

More and more of the top shooters are now switching to 9 from 38 for all the reasons mentioned above.  I've heard them comment that if they thought they were leaving ANY advantage to the 38 Super guys, they would still be shooting 38.

 

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Quote

Thank you for that info! I was always wondering why these custom gun manufacturers cut ports in the barrels as this will reduce the pressures, losing velocities, forcing one to use a higher load to make major. I could be wrong, but isn't the idea to force as much gases to the end of the barrel for the comp to be effective? Having ports cut all along inside a barrel will have the pressures exiting to early for the comp to really be effective. Am I wrong? I wish someone with a tang pistol with a V8 or V12 setup can comment, as that is a huge factor. I like the CZ style of pistols, but I hear the czechmates have bad barrels where the lugs break after a while with major loads. I have a chance to get the Tango, but the ported barrel does kinda worry me. What are your thoughts? Maybe an STI Trubor in 9mm is the way to go as was suggested earlier.

I believe the idea is to have a gun that shoots flatter because your bleeding gas off at a higher pressure and only applying downward force with the barrel ports no reduction in rearward force like the comp does. Tho I think straight vertical ports are a better idea because they should be more effective but I believe the v12 is a good setup.

 

I worry about my barrel lug breaking on my CZ sp-01 shadow open gun just because of the Czechmate reports but I haven't had any issues with the gun yet.

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The debate of 9mm vs .38SC is long and varied but mostly revolves around cost of brass. The difference in price is really not that great especially given that the .38SC can be reloaded more times extending its serviceable life. Hey, Open is undoubtedly the most expensive division to shoot, why obsess over a very small cost item like brass when compared to equipment, cost of traveling to matches and registration fees. 

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13 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

 STI Tru Bor in 9mm.

+1.   I bought two TruBor's about ten years ago - still love them.:bow:

        Unofortunately, I have NOT yet outgrown the guns - they perform better than I do ...   :ph34r:

         Almost NO advantage/disadvantage in the 9mm Major and the .38 Super debate -

         at best it's 51:49, either way.    Pick your choice and learn to shoot.    :) 

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is there anybody that shoots a Tanfo, or STI  DVC Open 

31 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said:

The Czechmate is a much better choice than a Gold Team

Why? I love Czechmates as I am a CZ fan, but I hear of them constantly breaking barrel lugs. One of the shooters at the club has one and he is fed up as he has gone through two barrels already. This has me a little worried about these. 

Edited by abb1
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I don't know about them "constantly" breaking barrels, I have a 2013 Czechmate which has had no issues, do you know what year your friend's is? How many rounds did he get on each barrel?

I've shot CZ Open guns for four years with barrels from all models (they're all made basically the same) and have never never broken anything except one slide stop on a well used Shadow I bought.

Between the CM and the GT, I don't think either is more or less likely to break although if a CM breaks it will be the barrel and on a GT it will be the slide.  These are race guns, run 'em hard enough, long enough and things will break/wear out.

The reason I prefer the CM to the GT is the trigger, comp and the fact that the CM is tighter/smoother than any of my 2011s.  The tiny two port comp on the GT is terrible, and the 12 holes require huge charges to make Major.  The CM comp is not the best I've shot, but much better than the GT, on the downside it's heavy, but no heavier than a steel comp, steel grip 2011 and plenty of people seem to like them.

I would consider the Trubor, CM and GT in the same league with my preference being the CM, TB, then the GT.  They're all high entry level race guns which will open the door to a custom build.

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13 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

I don't know about them "constantly" breaking barrels, I have a 2013 Czechmate which has had no issues, do you know what year your friend's is? How many rounds did he get on each barrel?

I've shot CZ Open guns for four years with barrels from all models (they're all made basically the same) and have never never broken anything except one slide stop on a well used Shadow I bought.

Between the CM and the GT, I don't think either is more or less likely to break although if a CM breaks it will be the barrel and on a GT it will be the slide.  These are race guns, run 'em hard enough, long enough and things will break/wear out.

The reason I prefer the CM to the GT is the trigger, comp and the fact that the CM is tighter/smoother than any of my 2011s.  The tiny two port comp on the GT is terrible, and the 12 holes require huge charges to make Major.  The CM comp is not the best I've shot, but much better than the GT, on the downside it's heavy, but no heavier than a steel comp, steel grip 2011 and plenty of people seem to like them.

I would consider the Trubor, CM and GT in the same league with my preference being the CM, TB, then the GT.  They're all high entry level race guns which will open the door to a custom build.

Thank you VERY much for that detailed comparison! Yes, making major in the Tanf has me worried with ll those barrel ports, so I doubt it highly that I will be buying this, although, you really only have to shoot major in matches. Still, those pressures will be a killer!

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Regarding the 9mm vs. 38SC debate:  I currently run a CZ TS Open and a 2011 Open, both in 40sw.  I was going to build myself a 2011 in 9/38, but decided to buy one because I cannot buy the parts I want myself (PT).  I've talked to several well know gunsmiths about options and builds.  I'll synopsize their opinions and recommendations below.  Many have already been mentioned.

38SC will give you more, and better options for load development because there are more powder choices.

38SC will work the comp better and, more importantly, tune the load to get the feel you want.  It will also be quieter than 9mm Major.

38SC gives you more options for ports, poppels and comps, again because of the wider powder selection available.

38SC feeds better than 9MM.

9mm has ejection problems with vertical C-More mounts, even when offset.

If you are serious about climbing up in the shooter ranks, you should ALWAYS use new brass for match ammo (one smith).  So the cost delta between 38SC and 9mm becomes meaningless, because you can pick up your practice brass.

Note:  they all preface their comments about what to recommend by saying ...if you want the best...etc.  All three of them are perfectly willing to build me a custom 9mm Major gun, and guarantee it will run.  I'm still undecided, because of the cost of 38SC brass.  Even the Level 1 matches I shoot are lost brass matches, so that becomes somewhat of an issue.  I don't pick up my brass now, and I enjoy not having to.

That being said, I shoot with a couple of Ms that shoot 9mm Major with slide mounted optics and their guns run and run.  They both use 124gr bullets.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think most of it comes down to preference. 
Myself, I am your "not as serious competition shooter"....I make it to a match when work schedule allows, and do it purely for the fun of it.
(I am what you would call one of your middle of the pack shooters)
The what I call "elders of the group"....kneelingatlas, Hi-Power Jack and others have been GREAT help to me.
In my case I settled on a Tanfoglio Gold Team in .40 S&W (that caliber because it was the only one available when I got the ich ) and then picked up one in 38SC when it came available.
Frankly, I LOVE the Gold Team, to me it is like having a Ferrari in your hands.
I LOVE the look and feel of it. The accuracy is fantastic and it shoots flat enough for me.
Yes it is LOUD and I feel bad for those around me, but I say, get what YOU like.

 

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Well, I have decided to go with the Czechmate. I read that they had the barrel issues fixed, and now am awaiting for one to arrive. With any race gun, I ill play it smart and only shoot major rounds in competititons, so the gun should last and hold up. Thanks for all your input.

Cheers

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3 minutes ago, abb1 said:

Well, I have decided to go with the Czechmate. I read that they had the barrel issues fixed, and now am awaiting for one to arrive. With any race gun, I ill play it smart and only shoot major rounds in competititons, so the gun should last and hold up. Thanks for all your input.

Cheers

Why would you do that?  Shoot minor in practice, then change the load and jump up the power for matches?  The gun can handle it, they're made for major.  And different loads will change the handling characteristics of the gun, so it's something like practicing on your steel gun for matches where you're shooting major.  I don't get it.

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