PCC SWEEPING

[NoSteel]

This thread is another indication of how polarizing this division can be.  Being that is a provisional division, I think it is an opportunity for those that are shooting this division at clubs that are being open enough to try to accomadate them, to be the best ambassadors they can be!!! If that means a little extra care in muzzle direction regardless of the rules interpretation, then take the extra time to insure the other competitors are made comfortable.  It does nothing but help strengthen the case to keep the division.  It is tough for some clubs to accept this division for a bunch of reasons ( not holstered, not a handgun, difficult stage design, pulling competitors from other divisions, etc, etc,etc).  So,. As a competitor in this provisional division,. Prove them wrong!!!  Show everyone that you are conscientious, safe, non confrontational and there to enjoy and promote the sport / division.

i shoot in the same club as Patrick Scott as well as other PCC entrants and I can tell you he was very involved in the discussion to support this division in our club as well as welcome others in to join.  Our monthly matches as well as the Vemonster regional match we had this summer had Patrick and others showing that stages can be designed that challenge all divisions, accommodate The PCC shooters and gave the opportunity to show this is a safe division.  I have now shot 3 matches with PCC shooters mixed in our squads and at no time was safety a question from any of them..  The other competitors and the R.O.'s have become much more comfortable with this division than we were at the start of the season.  And yes,  I was originally not a supporter of a Carbine in a "pistol sport".

Whether the rules are clear or not,  make the other club members comfortable with how you handle the tool you choose to use.  It will help in making a provisional division a permanent one....  Rant Off....

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by NoSteel

[Kraj]

The way i read the rules, 10.5.2.1 only applies as part of 10.5.2. So the pcc rule only applies to breaking the 180..during the course of fire

 

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not 
(limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

 

 

And pointing you gun at other people isn't a dq. Sweeping,  as the rule is written,  only applies in the course of fire. 

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e.sweeping).

Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body.

 

I'm all for not looking down the barrel of a gun at matches, but I don't see a dq the rulebook supports 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Kraj

[Nik Habicht]

There's also this to consider:

Quote

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

as well as:

Quote

Handling ..........................(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

So -- sweep peoples feet with a slung carbine -- might not be a DQ.  Sweep people's feet while having a hand on said carbine -- well, 10.5.1 could apply.  Do I care a whole lot about where the muzzle of a flagged carbine points, when the carbine is in a case or cart, or is reasonable vertically slung?  Not that much.....

Do I care a great deal if said carbine is in your hands?  Yep..... 

[Patrick Scott]

3 hours ago, Kraj said:

The way i read the rules, 10.5.2.1 only applies as part of 10.5.2. So the pcc rule only applies to breaking the 180..during the course of fire

 

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not 
(limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

 

 

And pointing you gun at other people isn't a dq. Sweeping,  as the rule is written,  only applies in the course of fire. 

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e.sweeping).

Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body.

 

I'm all for not looking down the barrel of a gun at matches, but I don't see a dq the rulebook supports 

You know what. I think you are on to something here.  I wonder if the intent of the PCC rules and what is stated in the Best Practices doc is to make any and all sweeping Dq'able, but I can not know the rule makers intent. Intent does not count as rule, only what is in black and white counts as rule. As far as what is in black and white, Im inclined to think you are right and I may have been wrong all along. It does make sense to me that PCC 10.5.2.1 is a sub rule to USPSA 10.5.2, and in that case PCC 10.5.2.1 only applies during the same time frame(COF) as USPSA 10.5.2.  As I said before, Im glad the provision status of the division allows for rule changes on the fly. Also its a good thing the DNROI can make rulings. I hope once Troy is done with Nationals he can help us out here.  Nobody wants to have a gun in any condition pointed at them and nobody wants to point a gun in any condition at anyone, but it does seem the way the rule is written that its not DQ'able outside the COF. 

 

So correct me if I am wrong, the big question here for Troy is whether or not sweeping yourself or "muzzling" another competitor or staff is a DQ outside the COF. The next thing in my mind would be, either way do changes need to be made?  I say outside the COF(so at this point the gun is flagged or bagged/cased)while not being held in hands(ie hanging from sling, mounted on cart, or in case/bag) no DQ.  Why do I say this? If its handheld and you sweep/muzzle someone you screwed up in a way that is totally avoidable since you are in complete control of the firearm vs. while slung in a legal position its nearly impossible to not sweep/muzzle at least yourself at some point with a longarm, unless your cart has your muzzle damn near in the dirt its nearly impossible to not sweep/muzzle, and with any case/bag that has its handle in a position that carries the gun horizontal its nearly impossible to not sweep/muzzle. 

 

ETA, Nik beat me to it, and with a lot less typing.

 

2nd ETA, Nik what about rule?
PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

Do you think that bypasses rule 10.5.1 for the sake of this argument?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Patrick Scott

[Kraj]

13 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

There's also this to consider:

as well as:

So -- sweep peoples feet with a slung carbine -- might not be a DQ.  Sweep people's feet while having a hand on said carbine -- well, 10.5.1 could apply.  Do I care a whole lot about where the muzzle of a flagged carbine points, when the carbine is in a case or cart, or is reasonable vertically slung?  Not that much.....

Do I care a great deal if said carbine is in your hands?  Yep..... 

PCC 5.2.1 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine: 

PCC 5.2.1.1 Detachable magazines removed. 

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made. 

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the 
shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner. 

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, 
whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used. 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased 
with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated 
as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When 
casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the 
muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and 
back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag.

[Patrick Scott]

So now I might have change my mind from getting rid of sling carry to getting rid of hand carry outside the COF.  I never did really like the idea of hand carry. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Patrick Scott

[Nik Habicht]

Short answer -- if you're hand carrying and the rifle is reasonably vertical -- I'm not likely to care.  Now, swing it down off your shoulder and muzzle someone -- I care a great deal.....

Bottom line -- don't point guns at other people.  It's a terrific way to not get invited back to play.....

 

[Kraj]

I think the rule allowing hand carried rifles was for this staging process and not meant to be all the time, but that's not how it is worded. 

 

Another thought.. Take the pcc out of the equation. Show me a rule dqing a shooting for sweeping the squad with a handgun not during the course of fire. 

 

You won't find one. One for breaking the 180? Sure. One for dropping a loaded gun? Yeah. Sweeping yourself not on the draw? Not allowed. Unholster your gun when it's not your turn? Doesn't apply to guns your allowed to hold and not store in a holster. 

 

Think of a stage where the RO ends up up range of the shooter and they get swept when the shooter transitions . Is the shooter dqed for pointing their gun up range where the RO shouldn't be? 

[rhett45acp]

Can I walk around with my handgun in the holster, holster slung over my shoulder on the belt?  Trigger group is protected via holster.  Should be unloaded, right? Sweeping should be OK?   Nope, all of that is a trip to DQ.

When putting a somewhat square peg in a round hole, one is to surely to run into some bumps.  That is how I see PCC.  There will be some bumps in the rules and implementation - thus provisional division for now.

I have no issue with PCC as long as the PCC world recognizes it is the square peg.  Don't expect the round hole to be square tomorrow. :-)   I expect there is room to move on both "sides", but this is the handgun worlds house and I would expect more moving to be done by PCC than the handgun world. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nik Habicht]

I'm with Rhett.  We've shot matches in some of the same places, and I shot some outlaw 3-gun matches where the basic safety rules for between stage gunhandling were "don't point your muzzle at anyone, and don't handle guns and ammo at the same time."  

That worked largely because everyone invited to the match knew what they were doing on the range already -- they'd been vetted.

USPSA attracts new shooters, and now potentially experienced pistol shooters who are trying a new platform -- PCC.  There'll be some things that will need to be tweaked to maintain USPSA's reputation for a solid safety ruleset.  I'm confident we can make that happen....

 

 

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, Kraj said:

I think the rule allowing hand carried rifles was for this staging process and not meant to be all the time, but that's not how it is worded. 

 

Another thought.. Take the pcc out of the equation. Show me a rule dqing a shooting for sweeping the squad with a handgun not during the course of fire. 

 

You won't find one. One for breaking the 180? Sure. One for dropping a loaded gun? Yeah. Sweeping yourself not on the draw? Not allowed. Unholster your gun when it's not your turn? Doesn't apply to guns your allowed to hold and not store in a holster. 

 

Think of a stage where the RO ends up up range of the shooter and they get swept when the shooter transitions . Is the shooter dqed for pointing their gun up range where the RO shouldn't be? 

Uprange where an RO shouldn't be?!? Where should they be, downrange of a shooter?

[dcloudy777]

Just kind of thinking out loud here...

I think a properly placed "clip" or "taco" made of kydex that slipped over the trigger guard would be better than a chamber flag.  Something like this:

 

And a rifle is as "safe" as a holstered handgun.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 10/5/2016 at 11:28 AM, Jmob50 said:

Chamber flag inserted, it's a stick! I don't see the issue. 

I think there will always be an issue if muzzle direction is not controlled. 

You see a muzzle pointed at you, you shit your pants, and then later you are able to see that there was a chamber flag. Not to say that some folks are not ok with being muzzled, I just can't imagine that the majority will ever get there. 

[Mhall]

On October 17, 2016 at 11:52 AM, dcloudy777 said:

Just kind of thinking out loud here...

I think a properly placed "clip" or "taco" made of kydex that slipped over the trigger guard would be better than a chamber flag.  Something like this:

 

And a rifle is as "safe" as a holstered handgun.

Wait...doesn't the clip hold bullets?

[Mhall]

1. All guns are always loaded. (Treat them so!)
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

 

 

Keep hearing "big boy" rules, but don't  these rules ALWAYS apply?

 

The rules in uspsa virtually eliminate the possibility of an accident by breaking one, or even more of these rules. Why are some so desperate to get their preferred tool included, they are willing to ignore these rules in favor of "big boy" rules?  I like the safety rules the way they are. I don't think uspsa should necessarily allow rules from another game that is notorious for having no rules. 

 

Dont get me wrong, I would like to shoot PCC, but just don't have the $$ right now to get into it. If I do, I will go out of my way to make sure other shooters are comfortable with my handling practices. Even if it a bit more of a hassle to me. 

 

[gerritm]

I shoot 3-gun & USPSA. Not sure why PCC handling seems to be different by competitors than handling an AR. Since PCC's have been allowed in both, locally, I have seen an upsurge in careless handling/sweeping  & problems with walls and props being shot (another post not knowing offsets).

Is it that the competitor is new to handling a rifle? We have strict no sweeping rules in 3-gun and never hesitate to talk to someone who is careless. Moreover it is addressed at the shooter's meeting at most of our local 3-gun matches. Everyone is an RO. I have never heard it addressed at a USPSA match. Being new I have seen several shooters admiring a PCC and hand it over to look at and handle without going to a safe area or even the berm. Would you do this with a pistol? Should never come out of the case or cart until brought to the line or safe area. Again would you do this with a cased pistol?

Last USPSA match I was at one of the shooters had their PCC on a cart pointing upwards and every time he moved it swept himself and others. At a falling steel match we were swept so many times we lost count.

Maybe it is time for MD's & SO's to address this at shooters meetings and DQ's passed out when violated. I really don't like looking at the business end of a weapon.

gerritm

[Patrick Scott]

I was wonder about sweeping while the gun is carted or being carried so I sent this off to Troy and dropped it on the USPSA forum close to a month ago and have not heard anything back.


I have a question about rule 10.5.2 

"10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of

his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the

median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows

the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not

 

(limited exceptions: 10.5.6)."

Am I to read this as the stated actions are only DQ'able under 10.5 during the COF? ie between "make ready" and "range is clear"?

 

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if PCC rule 10.5.2, being subset of rule 10.5.2, is only applicable during the same time frame(COF)?

"PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted."

 

More specifically, If a PCC gun sweeps the shooter or another competitor while it is slung/carried "reasonably vertical, and flagged, outside of the COF, is that grounds for DQ per 10.5 or its subset?

 

 

 Example: 

1) Shooter approaches start position while PCC is slung or carried "reasonably vertical) and flagged, and muzzle sweeps shooter or other competitors on the way to the position. Is shooter DQed?

 

2)After "range is clear" command is given, shooter wants to follow RO to check hits. PCC while slung or carried "reasonably vertical" and flagged sweeps his/her feet or the RO's feet. Is shooter DQed?

 

 

I know we all want to avoid sweeping and being swept at all times, but it seems that it is more difficult(for some situations) for it to be avoided.  I just want it to be clear at matches what constitutes a PCC sweeping DQ. 

 

 I would imagine the worst case scenario of a PCC shooter sweeping someone while not holding the gun "reasonably vertical" ie straight up pointing it at someone would be a DQ because the gun is no longer "reasonably vertical", but what rule # would that fall under?

[TxD]

22 hours ago, gerritm said:

I shoot 3-gun & USPSA. Not sure why PCC handling seems to be different by competitors than handling an AR. 

Last USPSA match I was at one of the shooters had their PCC on a cart pointing upwards and every time he moved it swept himself and others.

 

This is taken from USPSA Multigun Rules 2014.

 
5.2.3.4 Long guns may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably  vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber  safety flag is used. 

This is taken from Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014. Pistol Caliber Carbine

PCC 5.2.1.4  Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used. 

Good to go in either sport if a chamber safety flag was used.

Hope this helps. 
 

[Kraj]

23 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

I was wonder about sweeping while the gun is carted or being carried so I sent this off to Troy and dropped it on the USPSA forum close to a month ago and have not heard anything back.


I have a question about rule 10.5.2 

"10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of

his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the

median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows

the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not

 

(limited exceptions: 10.5.6)."

Am I to read this as the stated actions are only DQ'able under 10.5 during the COF? ie between "make ready" and "range is clear"?

 

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if PCC rule 10.5.2, being subset of rule 10.5.2, is only applicable during the same time frame(COF)?

"PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted."

 

More specifically, If a PCC gun sweeps the shooter or another competitor while it is slung/carried "reasonably vertical, and flagged, outside of the COF, is that grounds for DQ per 10.5 or its subset?

 

 

 Example: 

1) Shooter approaches start position while PCC is slung or carried "reasonably vertical) and flagged, and muzzle sweeps shooter or other competitors on the way to the position. Is shooter DQed?

 

2)After "range is clear" command is given, shooter wants to follow RO to check hits. PCC while slung or carried "reasonably vertical" and flagged sweeps his/her feet or the RO's feet. Is shooter DQed?

 

 

I know we all want to avoid sweeping and being swept at all times, but it seems that it is more difficult(for some situations) for it to be avoided.  I just want it to be clear at matches what constitutes a PCC sweeping DQ. 

 

 I would imagine the worst case scenario of a PCC shooter sweeping someone while not holding the gun "reasonably vertical" ie straight up pointing it at someone would be a DQ because the gun is no longer "reasonably vertical", but what rule # would that fall under?

 

 

I would be interested in hearing the reply if you get one

[PatJones]

If I knock my pistol out of my holster while taping and it sweeps half the squad on the way down, is it a DQ? No. The rules only support a DQ for sweeping during the course of fire.

[IHAVEGAS]

43 minutes ago, TxD said:

PCC 5.2.1.4  Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used. 

Good to go in either sport if a chamber safety flag was used.

 

So I guess the good news is that when you see a muzzle pointed in an unsafe direction the gun at least can't be in somebody's hands at the time???

[Mhall]

On November 8, 2016 at 9:06 AM, PatJones said:

If I knock my pistol out of my holster while taping and it sweeps half the squad on the way down, is it a DQ? No. The rules only support a DQ for sweeping during the course of fire.

Good point.

[theWacoKid]

On 11/8/2016 at 10:06 AM, PatJones said:

If I knock my pistol out of my holster while taping and it sweeps half the squad on the way down, is it a DQ? No. The rules only support a DQ for sweeping during the course of fire.

Yes, but the rules are actually way more strict in that scenario.  You cannot handle your handgun outside the course of fire, so if you handle it you're DQ'd before sweeping even becomes the issue.  We're letting people handle PCC's outside the course of fire which creates a set of issues that didn't need addressing with the rules as written for handguns.  Even if the handling and sweeping are not always going on at the same time.

Guns falling out of holsters is layered by the other requirements of gun condition, verifications, and rules.  It's a special case that was addressed.  Now we have special cases not addressed to the satisfaction of many members, me included.

[PatJones]

Yes, but the rules are actually way more strict in that scenario.  You cannot handle your handgun outside the course of fire, so if you handle it you're DQ'd before sweeping even becomes the issue.  We're letting people handle PCC's outside the course of fire which creates a set of issues that didn't need addressing with the rules as written for handguns.  Even if the handling and sweeping are not always going on at the same time.

Guns falling out of holsters is layered by the other requirements of gun condition, verifications, and rules.  It's a special case that was addressed.  Now we have special cases not addressed to the satisfaction of many members, me included.

If I bend over to tie my shoes and my empty holstered gun sweeps the shooter behind me, no one cares. We treat an empty holstered gun as though it's inert. A rifle with a chamber flag is just as inert. A bagged rifle with a chamber flag is probably safer than a bagged handgun, both are legal.

If I holster up at the line on my first stage as I normally do, I've probably swept several people with my bagged pistol. No one besides me has confirmed an empty chamber yet, and my bright red pistol case doesn't magically contain an ND. If the pistol is found to be loaded at the line it's a DQ, but that doesn't prevent an ND prior to that.

I don't shoot PCC, but I'm getting tired of all the fooling around with rifle cases I'm seeing at my local matches. It slows down the squad, and I don't see that it adds anything to the safety of the match. Show empty, click, flag it and go stick it in your bag somewhere else. Keep it up or down and point it into the side berm coming in and out of the bag. Done.

[eddiegunks]

Who do you guys shoot with?  

Non of my matches see any sweeping from pcc guys. 

That said, kost of my shooters run 3 gun as well so they are used to long guns. 

FWIW i have allowed pcc in my "outlaw" 3 gun matches for years. We are in NY so this helps to get people who do not have. A Pistol permit to come out and play.