SC - Production

[bigtimelarry]

in 2017 is the round count going to stay the same in Production - 10 Rounds.    It would be nice to load mags with more.. 

[ZackJones]

in 2017 is the round count going to stay the same in Production - 10 Rounds.    It would be nice to load mags with more.. 

Yes. 10 for production.

[photoracer]

I never put more than 10 in the mag regardless of which division of SC I am shooting. I use 5 mags (plus a spare) full of 10 for everything, including Single Stack and Limited, rifles, carbines, you name it. Max's Open gun is a single stack Sig frame with a custom slide so he doesn't use a lot of rounds in the gun either. My rational is that I want the gun to weigh the same when I start every run. If I started with a big stick mag the gun would get lighter the more I shot until it would be considerably lighter when the mag was almost empty. That effects the recoil and the entire weight so transitions might be slower at the start when its heavy compared to when its light. I do this even with rimfire rifles and pistol caliber carbines when shooting Steel Challenge (I don't do it in USPSA). I never run out of bullets. A few times the 10th round might be the last one I shoot in a run. Of course if you miss a lot feel free to do whatever you want.

[jkrispies]

I agree with photoracer.  I reload every time so that it becomes part of my routine.  I don't know how many times I've RO'd somebody shooting a 2011 and they go BANG BANG BANG BANG CLICK on the third or fourth run because they forgot to reload.  Right now I'm building a 9mm Single Stack that will also be my SC Limited gun if I decide to shoot in that division as well.  I'm not worried about it in the least.  

[photoracer]

I have used my Dan Wesson 9mm Bobtail Commander in Single Stack in SC before. Only thing I did was to buy 5 Metalform 10 rd. mags. I use my Glock 34 with an iron sight configured slide and Dawson FO sights in Limited. Same extended mags as my G34 open setup and the same 10 in the mags in both setups.

[bigtimelarry]

I use 5 Mags also.  I dont understand why the 10 round ammo limit. Seems lame to me. If you want to just load 10 rounds fine, but if you want more why do they have to restrict it. 

[stango424]

Because that is the uspsa rule set. Same reason you can't use a non production holster. There is limited division that will allow more ammo and a "race holster" so no need to change production up. 

[bigtimelarry]

So then you can do a reload quickly if you run out. Also then the power factor must be 125 also. Oh, I get it now.

[stango424]

You don't have to maintain a 125  pf in any division in steel challenge, also take the time to get the hit it will always be faster than extra shots and reloads

[AzShooter]

Learn to be confident and shoot as soon as your sight is in the center of the target.  In SC you don't have time to just sit there and watch the sight.  It's never going to be still so take the shot.  If you are calling your shots you will know a miss and will be able to make it up faster than a slow shot. 

[ZackJones]

I recently tried to talk Mike and Troy into allowing our centerfire guns to be set up based on open and limited while still maintaining separate divisions. I didn't get very far. Division requirements will be in the new rule book which Troy has for review.

[jkrispies]

5 hours ago, ZackJones said:

I recently tried to talk Mike and Troy into allowing our centerfire guns to be set up based on open and limited while still maintaining separate divisions. I didn't get very far. Division requirements will be in the new rule book which Troy has for review.

While I see both sides, I would tend to agree with sticking to the same equipment rules across both SC and USPSA clubs for the sake of simplicity and clarity.  That, and it's too easy for a shooter to load up 17 in his G34 and blindly bang out 12 rounds without realizing it. In that instance he'd be Limited and maybe not even realize it.  

[ZackJones]

19 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

While I see both sides, I would tend to agree with sticking to the same equipment rules across both SC and USPSA clubs for the sake of simplicity and clarity.  That, and it's too easy for a shooter to load up 17 in his G34 and blindly bang out 12 rounds without realizing it. In that instance he'd be Limited and maybe not even realize it.  

That was their position as well. We don't want to confuse people shooting in the Production division by allowing loading to capacity in Steel Challenge and then have them get bumped to Open for doing the same thing in a USPSA match. The thing that irks me, that I'll just have to get over, is adding the division specific appendixes doubled the size of the rule book. 

[bigtimelarry]

I say load as many as you want in Production. Keep the Equipment Rules the same but Ammo should be no rule. They dont have a PF Minimum.  

[davsco]

i'm with same rules for both games.  you want more rounds in the gun, just enter in ltd or open divisions.  if one is shooting more than 11 rounds in a string, he or she isn't competitive anyways.

[Pasley]

I would prefer to only have two centerfire pistol divisions.  Iron sight and optical.  I would limit both to ten rounds only.

[ZackJones]

4 hours ago, Pasley said:

I would prefer to only have two centerfire pistol divisions.  Iron sight and optical.  I would limit both to ten rounds only.

That's one thing I like about Pro-Am - you either shoot Limited or Open. I would like to see the center fire iron divisions merged into limited and CO and Open merged into Open but I seriously doubt that would ever fly.

[Pasley]

It will be interesting to see how the new classification system treats production and limited.

[ZackJones]

1 hour ago, Pasley said:

It will be interesting to see how the new classification system treats production and limited.

Each has their own PST. I believe Limited is lower than Production but I don't recall the difference off the top of my head.

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, Pasley said:

It will be interesting to see how the new classification system treats production and limited.

Or Single Stack and Limited.  Having said that, I'd still vote to mirror the the rules between the two clubs.  Remember that the rules spread across all equipment and not just guns. For instance, a 9mm Single Stack gun is not terribly different from a 9mm Limited gun within the confines of shooting a steel array, but the rules on holster design and placement are dramatically different between those two categories, affecting draw speed, which is a big deal when shooting steel.  A 1/4 second difference in draw speed per string equals 8 seconds total at the end of the match. That's huge.  Hence, the guns are very similar but when the rules governing the overall category are taken into account, they are indeed worthy of separation.  

[bigtimelarry]

On 10/1/2016 at 4:43 PM, davsco said:

i'm with same rules for both games.  you want more rounds in the gun, just enter in ltd or open divisions.  if one is shooting more than 11 rounds in a string, he or she isn't competitive anyways.

 

Then put a minimum 125 PF  if your with the rules the same for both games..

[jkrispies]

I'm good with that. 

[ZackJones]

I'm good with that. 

No thank you. The last thing I want to have to deal with at a match would be chrono.

[jkrispies]

I don't know how the current rule reads since the preUSPSA days, but unless it's changed sincd then the chrono rule already exists. Mike Dalton's rule has always been that you can shoot what you want (magnums excluded) as long as the round is traveling faster than 750fps so that the projectile disintegrates upon impact rather than ricocheting back to the shooter.  I don't think anybody chronos because that standard is so low, but it does exist.  

[photoracer]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 2:12 AM, AzShooter said:

Learn to be confident and shoot as soon as your sight is in the center of the target.  In SC you don't have time to just sit there and watch the sight.  It's never going to be still so take the shot.  If you are calling your shots you will know a miss and will be able to make it up faster than a slow shot. 

You should not be waiting for the sight to get into the center of the target (as Max pointed out in his class). You should break the shot as soon as the dot movement puts it completely inside the boundaries of the plate you are shooting at (your iron sight results may vary but the principle is the same). If your shots are grouping (except the first shot but even that breaks the same way) you are costing yourself time.