10.5.9 sight picture and dropping hammer during LMR command

[CalTeacher]

I saw something interesting today at a local match.  Two different shooters after the "load and make ready" command inserted a magazine with ammunition, did not chamber a round, then proceeded to get a sight picture and dry fire (hammer fell upon pressing trigger) before finally racking the slide and chamber in a round then holstering.  If I read 10.5.9 correctly this is only allowed if the gun has a decocking mechanism.  One shooter, however, did this with a 2011.

 

so what's the call? DQ for the 2011 shooter?  Any insight would be appreciated.

[molson]

8.7.1 permits a sight picture.  There is no wording stating a mag in the gun nor a loaded sight picture is not allowed at make ready.  Therefore I cannot DQ the shooter and would allow it.  Now if they racked the slide and then pulled the trigger AND the gun goes bang, they are done with an unsafe gun handling DQ.

I see where 10.5.9 might be confusing.

it will be interesting to hear other opinions as this practice is so common in USPSA that this is the first time I have ever heard it questioned as not being legal .

Molson

Edited September 25, 2016 by molson

[davsco]

dq is for finger in the triggerguard while loading.  with mag in, despite slide not being racked, and then taking sight picture and dry firing, that wasn't during "loading."

 

but not necessarily smart to be pulling the trigger with a loaded mag in the gun, just in case...

Edited September 25, 2016 by davsco

[molson]

Also, the gun is not loaded by the definition of a loaded gun in the definitions section of the rule book until a round is chambered, assuming there was not one before inserting the loaded mag of course.  

Look at the definition.

Poor form for make ready perhaps, but very common practice.

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, molson said:

Also, the gun is not loaded by the definition of a loaded gun in the definitions section of the rule book until a round is chambered, assuming there was not one before inserting the loaded mag of course.  

Look at the definition.

Poor form for make ready perhaps, but very common practice.

From appendix A3:

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

[teros135]

BTW, are we talking about USPSA?  If so, the command is "Make ready".  If it's not USPSA, different rules may be in play.

Edited September 25, 2016 by teros135

[CalTeacher]

Yes, USPSA.  Load and make ready...make ready...you know the command. Semantics aside, it's the action I'm referring to, not the way in which ROs say them at local matches.

 

Chuck,

does a loaded firearm apply to one that has not yet started a course of fire after the starting signal?  

 

I see an exemption for firearms with decocking safeties in 10.5.9,and I can't quote the rule book clearly enough to tell the RO why this should be a DQ if the shooter isn't using a firearm with a decocking mechanism.

 

perhaps it is simply poor form on behalf of the shooter.  I've never seen it before though.

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Chuck,

does a loaded firearm apply to one that has not yet started a course of fire after the starting signal? 

anytime... (BTW: The COF starts with "Make Ready")

 

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Yes, USPSA.  Load and make ready...make ready...you know the command. Semantics aside, it's the action I'm referring to, not the way in which ROs say them at local matches.

 

Chuck,

does a loaded firearm apply to one that has not yet started a course of fire after the starting signal?  

 

I see an exemption for firearms with decocking safeties in 10.5.9,and I can't quote the rule book clearly enough to tell the RO why this should be a DQ if the shooter isn't using a firearm with a decocking mechanism.

 

perhaps it is simply poor form on behalf of the shooter.  I've never seen it before though.

Proper range commands don't fall under semantics. 

What the shooter did is perfectly legal. Let's move along. Nothing to see here.

[CalTeacher]

29 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Proper range commands don't fall under semantics. 

What the shooter did is perfectly legal. Let's move along. Nothing to see here.

Ok, just to clarify.  I'm not asking about the range commands, although I often hear "load and make ready" or "make ready" at local matches.  That's not the issue.  The issue is the fact that rule 10.5.9 seems to forbid what I saw with a shooter doing what was outlined in my opening post with a 2011.  

 

"Let's move along. Nothing to see here."  Really?  

 

Definition of loading from appendix A3:  The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.  

 

So technically a finger was on the trigger during the loading procedure (since loading had not been completed by chambering a round).  Without the exemption of a decocking safety outlined in 10.5.9, it would appear as though what I witnessed was illegal.

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

So technically a finger was on the trigger during the loading procedure (since loading had not been completed by chambering a round).  Without the exemption of a decocking safety outlined in 10.5.9, it would appear as though what I witnessed was illegal.

The gun was loaded when the magazine was inserted.

[CalTeacher]

3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

The gun was loaded when the magazine was inserted.

Not according to the definition of loading in A3.  Inserting the magazine does not a loaded gun make.  The loading procedure is only complete once the gun is in battery and ready to fire.  Thus, the finger was on the trigger during the loading procedure.  Right?

 

I can see where you guys are coming from with certain points, but the definition of "loading" and the wording of 10.5.9 seem to indicate that what I witnessed today with a 2011 is not permitted.

[ChuckS]

1 minute ago, CalTeacher said:

Not according to the definition of loading in A3.  Inserting the magazine does not a loaded gun make.  The loading procedure is only complete once the gun is in battery and ready to fire.  Thus, the finger was on the trigger during the loading procedure.  Right?

 

I can see where you guys are coming from with certain points, but the definition of "loading" and the wording of 10.5.9 seem to indicate that what I witnessed today with a 2011 is not permitted.

This is the definition of a loaded gun (past tense)

From appendix A3:

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

The mag inserted makes it a loaded gun. Chamber can be empty in a loaded gun by this definition. Had it been "and" instead of "or", you would be correct.

 

[CalTeacher]

8 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

This is the definition of a loaded gun (past tense)

From appendix A3:

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

The mag inserted makes it a loaded gun. Chamber can be empty in a loaded gun by this definition. Had it been "and" instead of "or", you would be correct.

 

The definitions seem to conflict then.  If the process of loading requires a gun to be in battery and ready to fire, then how can a gun be loaded merely by having a magazine with a round in it in the magwell?

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Ok, just to clarify.  I'm not asking about the range commands, although I often hear "load and make ready" or "make ready" at local matches.  That's not the issue.  The issue is the fact that rule 10.5.9 seems to forbid what I saw with a shooter doing what was outlined in my opening post with a 2011.  

 

"Let's move along. Nothing to see here."  Really?  

 

Definition of loading from appendix A3:  The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.  

 

So technically a finger was on the trigger during the loading procedure (since loading had not been completed by chambering a round).  Without the exemption of a decocking safety outlined in 10.5.9, it would appear as though what I witnessed was illegal.

I'm glad they use make ready because that is correct.

once the shooter was no longer actively involved in the loading process he is fine with having finger in the trigger guard. If he had finger in ther while inserting mag, racking slide etc, then he is in violation of 10.5.9. 

I think we are in the presence of a troll personally.

[CalTeacher]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I'm glad they use make ready because that is correct.

once the shooter was no longer actively involved in the loading process he is fine with having finger in the trigger guard. If he had finger in ther while inserting mag, racking slide etc, then he is in violation of 10.5.9. 

I think we are in the presence of a troll personally.

So asking a question and quoting the rule book means I am a troll?  I don't get it.  People like myself are trying to learn more about things that will help our local matches run smoother, and also help us put on major matches for USPSA shooters to enjoy within the confines of the rules, of course.  Yes, I'm still learning, as are the other people that put on our matches that attract lots of people in CA.  That's why I asked this question here.  To learn.  You know, what people do when whey want to improve USPSA matches.

So, with that, I ask the following question:

If the loading procedure is completed when the gun is in battery and ready to fire, and the shooter pulls the trigger after a loaded magazine has been inserted into the magwell, but before the loading procedure is complete, is that not during the loading procedure?

[ChuckS]

Would you please quote the rule in the book about "completion" of loading? Never mind...

 

Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

You are correct that there is a conflict between the definition of a loaded gun and the act of loading.

Edited September 25, 2016 by ChuckS

[CalTeacher]

5 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Would you please quote the rule in the book about "completion" of loading?

Sure.  Page 58 of the rulebook states the following:

"Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire."

[CalTeacher]

19 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Would you please quote the rule in the book about "completion" of loading? Never mind...

 

Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

You are correct that there is a conflict between the definition of a loaded gun and the act of loading.

So, with that being said, If one used the definition of "loading" as outlined in the appendix, what I originally described in my opening post should be an offense worthy of a DQ for the shooter with the 2011 as they are not exempt from 10.5.9, given the definition of loading in A3.

 

Some others have said that this is common, but I've never seen it done at any match I've been to.  I only asked because it caught me off guard.

[ChuckS]

I personally have see that done before (up to and including Nationals) and as a RO I would not call it a DQ.

[Sandbagger123]

i have seen it done locally many times. a few of the M and GM that have been to big matches. i would think if it was their routine and D/Q able they would have went home often.   to most its not loaded unless there is a round in chamber . 

[levellinebrad]

Legal during make ready. Your original post states that the shooter loaded a magazine into the pistol and then proceeded to dry fire. It did not say that he had a finger inside the trigger guard while inserting a magazine. 

8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the 
competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the 
handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction 
authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

If the shooter had his finger inside the trigger guard, while loading, at the make ready command, it would be a dq.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, 
reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make 
Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking 
lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

[Gooldylocks]

I very occasionally will do this, if it is a weird draw or something. In my opinion as a competitor and RO I would say that it isn't a DQ, based on the definition of loaded gun.

And yes. I would call it a fairly common thing. Not super common, but common enough to not be concerned when I see it as an RO. Lots of people like to get the feel of a draw with the gun as heavy as it will be when it's loaded.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[grapemeister]

Part of the problem in this argument, or lack of understanding, might be that it is not understood by some that in battery and ready to fire does not necessarily mean that a round has to be in the chamber.   Hate to point out what might be considered common knowledge by some, but maybe it will help, nonetheless.

[wgj3]

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Some of the folk who tend to be such sticklers to the rules/rulebook seem to be trying to blow off the OP's question by saying that because they see it occasionally and some M's and GM's do it, so it's ok. 

 

OP is questioning the fact that a shooter is fingering the trigger DURING the loading process.

Obviously the shooter in question had not truly completed "loading" his pistol because he manipulated it further before holstering it, so he was fingering during loading.

Another part of the rulebook says that the pistol is "loaded" once a loaded mag is inserted, so it would be ok to finger trigger as long as it doesn't go bang.

What's the answer and justification?