Shadow Orange and IDPA

[CookieTheSwede]

Going to try IDPA this winter. Can my Shadow Orange fit in the mix? IDPA rules are giving me a headache, I can't see this lasting long. But will try with an open mind. 

Thanks

[rowdyb]

is it a factory gun? is it under 43 oz? were the correct number of them made? will it fit the box? if yes then good to go!

and though it hurts me to say it, if you're just shooting locally no one will care.

[CookieTheSwede]

is it a factory gun? is it under 43 oz? were the correct number of them made? will it fit the box? if yes then good to go!

and though it hurts me to say it, if you're just shooting locally no one will care.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

So, I would be in SSP if it make fighting weight?

I assumed as much locally.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CookieTheSwede]

Double post

[ItsCZas123]

According to IDPA website for production models the Shadow Orange is on it see below.

I have a Shadow Orange as well and it is an awesome factory gun.

CZ - CESKA ZBROJOVKA CZ75B Omega, CZ75 P-02, CZ75, CZ75B, CZ75B Stainless, CZ75BD, CZ75BD Police, CZ75 Compact, CZ75D Compact, CZ75 SemiCompact, CZ75 Combat II, CZ85, CZ85B, CZ85 Combat

CZ40B, CZ97B, CZ99, CZ100, CZ110, CZ2075 Rami, CZ2075D Rami, CZ2075 Rami P

CZ75 P01, P07, P07 Duty, P09, CZ75 SP-01, CZ75 SP-01 Tactical, CZ75 SP-01 Shadow, CZ75 SP01 Dual Tone, CZ75 SP-01 Sport (9x21mm version with OFM trigger stop as sold in Italy), CZ75 SP-01 Phantom, CZ75 SP-01 Shadow TR, CZ75 SP-01 Shadow Orange, Shadow 2.

Also approved: variants with original (CZUB) barrels which are longer than standard (e.g. SP-01A, SP-01DK), provided the barrel length does not exceed 127mm, and provided all other aspects of these variants fully comply with all other Production Division rules.

Also approved: original (CZUB) dual tone, coloured frame, and Shadow Line variants of approved models.

NOT APPROVED: CZ-USA and CZ Custom Shop variants (e.g. SP-01 Shadow Target, CZ 75 Shadow T, CZ 75 SP01 ACCU Shadow etc.)
NOT APPROVED: Frankonia models (e.g. Mamba, Viper etc.).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CookieTheSwede]

Thanks guys! Just what I was looking for!

Now to go learn all the rules of a gunfight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rowdyb]

I'm pretty sure that's the IPSC list that was quoted as IDPA doesn't have a gun list and the division is called Stock Service Pistol.

[ItsCZas123]

I'm pretty sure that's the IPSC list that was quoted as IDPA doesn't have a gun list and the division is called Stock Service Pistol.

You are correct I pulled up IDPA and ended up looking at the IPSC production list...sorry my mistake thought I was being helpful. It appears there is no actual list just a list of criteria it must meet and weight limits and must fit in a box of certain dimensions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CookieTheSwede]

Well the only thing that matters is I talked to the guy who runs the match. He said come shoot it. He runs a shadow and said he is cool with it. He does have a box I can see if it fits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PRanta]

CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Orange fits easily in the IDPA box. Markings on the slide are same as in the regular Shadow, so the Orange is only a variation of base Shadow.

[ArrDave]

Honestly even at sanctioned matches nobody is going to check.  Most tier 2, tier 3 matches don't even examine your equipment.  1 out of the 4 sanctioned IDPA matches I've shot did they even inspect the guns at chrono.  The other ones you hand Bubba your gun, he shoots it, then hands it back.  There will be one box start stage, and that's usually it. 

[extremist]

44 minutes ago, ArrDave said:

Honestly even at sanctioned matches nobody is going to check.  Most tier 2, tier 3 matches don't even examine your equipment.  1 out of the 4 sanctioned IDPA matches I've shot did they even inspect the guns at chrono.  The other ones you hand Bubba your gun, he shoots it, then hands it back.  There will be one box start stage, and that's usually it. 

Not true.  We certainly check at our CTASA Sanctioned Matches.  And I always have my eye out for anyone shooting a SP01 Shadow Target, as they are not allowed in SSP/ESP because of the milled slide target sight that is not factory.  Now that being said, a shooter has gotten away with shooting his Shadow Target for at least the last two major matches I've have been a CSO at, including Nationals last year.  Well he didn't get away with it this year - he was DQ'd on Monday. 

But as to the original poster's question on the Shadow Orange - it is absolutely legal in IDPA SSP and ESP. 

[B_RAD]

40 minutes ago, extremist said:

Not true.  We certainly check at our CTASA Sanctioned Matches.  And I always have my eye out for anyone shooting a SP01 Shadow Target, as they are not allowed in SSP/ESP because of the milled slide target sight that is not factory.  Now that being said, a shooter has gotten away with shooting his Shadow Target for at least the last two major matches I've have been a CSO at, including Nationals last year.  Well he didn't get away with it this year - he was DQ'd on Monday. 

But as to the original poster's question on the Shadow Orange - it is absolutely legal in IDPA SSP and ESP. 

Not to hijack this thread but I've got a friend that wants to sell me his target 2 for a killer price. I'm a little hesitant because I'm thinking the equipment checker guy will see target sights and be like, "this I at leagal"!  I don't want to deal with trying tot explain that the slide has not been milled for the low profile adj sight. Might not be a problem but just don't want to be DQ'd.  

As a CSO have you seen the target 2?  Are you familiar with it?  There's only 80 different variants to the dang shadows so it's hard to keep up and know what's what. 

[ArrDave]

45 minutes ago, extremist said:

Not true.  We certainly check at our CTASA Sanctioned Matches.  And I always have my eye out for anyone shooting a SP01 Shadow Target, as they are not allowed in SSP/ESP because of the milled slide target sight that is not factory.  Now that being said, a shooter has gotten away with shooting his Shadow Target for at least the last two major matches I've have been a CSO at, including Nationals last year.  Well he didn't get away with it this year - he was DQ'd on Monday. 

But as to the original poster's question on the Shadow Orange - it is absolutely legal in IDPA SSP and ESP. 

I don't see how your anecdote discounts my anecdotes.  The matches I'm referencing were a Tier 4, two tier 3's, and a tier 2.  The Tier 4 was the only one that did a meaningful equipment check, including a scarecrow test.  All the other ones were pretty laid back.  I wouldn't expect nationals to NOT gear check, but regional matches, or state level matches, it's been my experience you're not going to get gear checked.  

 

That said I hope they revise the equipment rules so that they are easier to police/enforce with the next rulebook revision.  As it sits currently you have to be way more familiar with each gun than you need to, which is why I think they're not strictly enforced at sanctioned levels.  ( Examples:  What constitutes a legal base plate for an SP01?  What if it's shot in ESP, how much weight do I get?  Is it 1 oz or 1.5oz because it ships with a lighter 18 rd mag than the CZ 75 variant, however the CZ75 16 round oem magazines are heavier.  Does the SSP exemption mean I get 1 oz or 1.5oz?)

[ArrDave]

12 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Not to hijack this thread but I've got a friend that wants to sell me his target 2 for a killer price. I'm a little hesitant because I'm thinking the equipment checker guy will see target sights and be like, "this I at leagal"!  I don't want to deal with trying tot explain that the slide has not been milled for the low profile adj sight. Might not be a problem but just don't want to be DQ'd.  

As a CSO have you seen the target 2?  Are you familiar with it?  There's only 80 different variants to the dang shadows so it's hard to keep up and know what's what. 

The Shadow Target 2 is legal because it doesn't need slide milling, and I think you can demonstrate that pretty easily  becaues the target sight sits up way off the slide.  Honestly you could say you added the rear sight and didn't have to mill it, don't even call it a Shadow Target 2, just say it's a shadow where you added an LPA rear that sits in the stock dovetail.  My buddy did this to his shadow custom and it's effectively a target 2.  Fits in the box, weighs less than 43 oz, good to go. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by ArrDave

[B_RAD]

Just now, ArrDave said:

The Shadow Target 2 is legal because it doesn't need slide milling, and I think you can demonstrate that pretty easily  becaues the target sight sits up way off the slide.

One would think!

 

 

[extremist]

Yes, as a CSO and very familiar with CZs and 1911s, if I'm consulted or doing equipment checks, I certainly know that the Target II is 100% legal.

James

[Toolguy]

What about a Tac Sport? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.

[SDM]

Tac Sport would be tough in IDPA. Need to cut the dustcover back to the measurement in the rulebook and make 43oz.

[mikeinctown]

What is so different about the shadow orange that would make it non legal? Isn't it just a shadow with the orange aluminum grips? Forgive the ignorance, but I see the canada version on the CZC website as well and from what I can see it's the same pistol with just custom grips.

[extremist]

1 hour ago, mikeinctown said:

What is so different about the shadow orange that would make it non legal? Isn't it just a shadow with the orange aluminum grips? Forgive the ignorance, but I see the canada version on the CZC website as well and from what I can see it's the same pistol with just custom grips.

I don't think anyone here said that the Shadow Orange would not be IDPA SSP/ESP or USPSA Production "non-legal".  It is legal.

[speedseeker]

On 9/14/2016 at 11:46 AM, extremist said:

Not true.  We certainly check at our CTASA Sanctioned Matches.  And I always have my eye out for anyone shooting a SP01 Shadow Target, as they are not allowed in SSP/ESP because of the milled slide target sight that is not factory.  Now that being said, a shooter has gotten away with shooting his Shadow Target for at least the last two major matches I've have been a CSO at, including Nationals last year.  Well he didn't get away with it this year - he was DQ'd on Monday. 

But as to the original poster's question on the Shadow Orange - it is absolutely legal in IDPA SSP and ESP. 

Wouldn't the steel dust cover make this illegal in both SSP and ESP?  The rules change so much its hard to know exactly what is and what is not legal anymore.

[extremist]

Here's what I know of the history.  Initially it was not legal because of weight.  In 2005 Rulebook, SSP weight limit was 39 oz.  Quote from the 2005 Rulebook:

Quote

Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP and CDP
depending upon caliber, even if the pistol in question has a fulllength
dust cover. However, should the pistol in question have a
modification that removes it from SSP, it must meet all other
division criteria for ESP or CDP, again depending upon caliber.

ESP had a weight limit of 43 oz in 2005, so it was legal for ESP but not SSP because of the weight.

But when they raised the SSP weight to 43 oz. in the 2013 rulebook, the SP01 became legal in SSP.  8.2.1.1.5.

Also 8.2.2.1.7 clarifies dust cover:

Quote

8.2.2.1.7 All firearms legal in SSP are legal for use in ESP. This provision may be used for firearms that violate an ESP rule (for example, a firearm with a steel dust cover or rail over 3.25”) to still be used in ESP, provided the firearm meets all SSP requirements.

I believe this is the correct history but I invite corrections/clarifications.

Edited September 19, 2016 by extremist

[MrTuna]

If you're just running it in ESP you can put the CZC IDPA magwell on it. Otherwise you can run it in both.


Sent from my bunker in the desert using Tapatalk

[ArrDave]

1 hour ago, MrTuna said:

If you're just running it in ESP you can put the CZC IDPA magwell on it. Otherwise you can run it in both.


Sent from my bunker in the desert using Tapatalk

Cannot put a magwell on an SP01.  Can put a magwell on a P09, regular shadow, 75b, 85b/c