can i be penalized in choosing not to do something ?

[Sandbagger123]

we had a tread mill stage this month. you had a choice of starting with the tread mill on or off. if one chose the off and shot it so they recieved a procedural for each shooting position,  which there were 3.  it was a choice one had to make before the beep. 

So was this legal?

[JAFO]

I suppose it would fall under the Special Penalty, assuming that the choice was made based on not being able to perform the stage requirement:

10.2.10 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement.

In this case, the RM has decided upon the penalty ahead of time.

[George Jones]

A special penalty does not apply here.  Those are for inability to do something, such as not being able to bend knees for a low port.

It's not clear if the shooting positions were on the treadmill(s), so can't say much about potential legality.

Having to make the choice before the beep is a bit.....    

[High Lord Gomer]

From the sound of it they should have said in the stage briefing that, "Starting position is either standing on treadmill with power off or walking on treadmill that is on.  After signal, engage targets T1-T3 while walking on treadmill."

 

If you choose not to turn it on and walk while taking those first 6 shots, you will incur either a single procedural or 1 per shot fired (up to 6) if they considered it a significant advantage to not comply.

 

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur-rence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage dur-ing non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.
10.2.3 Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots fired.

[DukeEB]

The only shooting position was on the treadmill, and you had to mag swap when switching to a different array.

[George Jones]

Three shooting positions on one treadmill?  

How many targets for each "position"?

Not enough information to know if this stage was even legal.  A full WSB would help.

[DukeEB]

There were three arrays of targets, I think 3-4 targets on each side, one target and 4 poppers in the front.

I don't have the briefing though.

[Sandbagger123]

WSB was basically " starting on treadmill moving .  shoot each of the 3 arrays with a reload in between each  array.  if one chooses to not have the treadmill moving there will be a [rocedural penalty for each shooting position. So 3 procedurals.  

So can one be penalized even before the beep for choosing the tread mill not moving.  if one had a choice of activating the treadmill or not after the beep, i think the procedurals  might be valid, but even before the beep? 

 

go to the 1 minute mark and its the stage.  

 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sandbagger123

[MikeBurgess]

So how do the fault lines on a moving tread mill work?

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended

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[Kraj]

15 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So how do the fault lines on a moving tread mill work?

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

You could just spray paint the edge of the treadmill. 

 

"Should ..............................Optional but highly recommended"  in the glossary. 

 

must be fixed firmly in place - as long as the edges arnt fallling apart you fine.

and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. - you can see the mark and if your foot is hanging off your over.

[rowdyb]

didn't this same club just use a treadmill in the WA state idpa match? everyone has a prop they love.....

sounds like another case of a poorly written stage brief.

[JAFO]

Would this qualify as a legal Medium course?  Although it has three views, all targets are shot from a single location.

1.2.1.2 Medium Courses: must not require more than 20 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

 

Perhaps they were going for a creative interpretation of the definition in the Glossary:

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

 

[CHA-LEE]

That treadmill stage is illegal. The round count is too high from a single shooting position. Its too many rounds to be a Short Course, and you can't mandate reloads on a medium course. You also can't force people to do anything without defining the shooting area. If the shooting area was defined as the treadmill its self then you could simply stand on the sides in a stationary position.

We have rules for a reason. Why some clubs or stage designers choose to ignore them is beyond me. Just because a prop is "Cool" does not make it valid to break rules in order to use it.

Rule 1.1.5 pretty much sinks this stage from the get go. How is it freestyle when all of your actions are dictated and you are forced to engage all of the targets from a single position? If you want to play a game that dictates everything you need to do during the stage run then attend an IDPA match.  

[CHA-LEE]

...

Edited August 31, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[Southpaw]

Yeah illegal for multiple reasons...but it does look like fun

[BARRYJ]

I think his question was specifically about the treadmill.  If the WSB states that the shooter has to be on the treadmill and it has to be on, is it legal to penalize if the shooter decides to leave it off?

[twodownzero]

6 minutes ago, BARRYJ said:

I think his question was specifically about the treadmill.  If the WSB states that the shooter has to be on the treadmill and it has to be on, is it legal to penalize if the shooter decides to leave it off?

Yes, failure to follow the stage procedure is a procedural error.

 

That said, a rules analysis of an illegal stage is usually a waste of time.

[PatJones]

Stage ideas that start with "wouldn't it be cool if..." are usually a poor idea.

[High Lord Gomer]

On 9/3/2016 at 10:05 AM, BARRYJ said:

I think his question was specifically about the treadmill.  If the WSB states that the shooter has to be on the treadmill and it has to be on, is it legal to penalize if the shooter decides to leave it off?

If that was specified as the starting position, then the RO should not start the shooter until it is on.

[teros135]

1 minute ago, High Lord Gomer said:

If that was specified as the starting position, then the RO should not start the shooter until it is on.

True.  Sometimes we get involved with the details and forget to look at the basics.  Nice catch, Gomer.

That said, there are a couple of issues with treadmill-as-shooting box.  The darn thing moves, after all, and if you don't have your feet planted right on the tread and step on the stationary sides of the base, it'll throw you (and you have a live gun in your hand).  If you let it take you too far back you'll fall off (with a live gun in your hand).  The stage seems to have you shooting while turned to the left, straight, and to the right, so there are two unusual positions for treadmill-walking.  And, there's adrenaline, tunnel-vision focus, yada yada. 

Yeah, I know the guy in the video did it, and others also, but there are somewhat risks here that should be considered.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Would this qualify as a legal Medium course?  Although it has three views, all targets are shot from a single location.

1.2.1.2 Medium Courses: must not require more than 20 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

 

Perhaps they were going for a creative interpretation of the definition in the Glossary:

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

 

I'm thinking that the "location OR view" portion is what's critical here. because while there is only one "location" (as defined in the glossary), there are definitely multiple views. So I would think it would be fine in that aspect.

Where i see it falling down is in the round count, too many for a short course, and you can't call it a standards because it has steel (standards has to be Virginia or fixed time, no?)

[PatJones]

1.1.5. Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted
to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot
targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not
require mandatory reloads _nor_dictate_a_shooting_position_, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

[waktasz]

On 9/4/2016 at 10:36 AM, Gooldylocks said:

I'm thinking that the "location OR view" portion is what's critical here. because while there is only one "location" (as defined in the glossary), there are definitely multiple views. So I would think it would be fine in that aspect.

Where i see it falling down is in the round count, too many for a short course, and you can't call it a standards because it has steel (standards has to be Virginia or fixed time, no?)

There are not multiple views. There is one port from one position, so it's one view. Having multiple target arrays doesn't mean multiple views.  What if I had a 32 round COF with one port in a wall and called that 32 different views?  I don't think so.

[Gooldylocks]

There are not multiple views. There is one port from one position, so it's one view. Having multiple target arrays doesn't mean multiple views.  What if I had a 32 round COF with one port in a wall and called that 32 different views?  I don't think so.

There are 3 different ports here, not one, so I don't think your comparison is very apt. One position, 3 ports not 1 position 1 port.

[waktasz]

You're right I'm an idiot. I looked at the video for a split second on my phone and thought he shot everything out of the port in the center.