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Fastest powder with lowest charge weight?


thompsoncustom

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3 hours ago, ARy said:

 You can't take the top burning powders (let me list again cause you don't read very well; ramcomp, TW, nitro, etc.) and make pressure within specs without going over using a 115/124. 

You just listed 3 powders slower than the n310 used in my example that using the data does make minor within spec...

you're basing all of this on your one bad example. You had a book load that showed 3-3.5 with ram comp being right at 34k psi that you are worried about surpassing. then you added another half a grain of powder and had to be told you were beyond max pressures when it was already common sense.

your example does not = that quoted statement you keep making.

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Fast powders are generally loaded with lighter bullets.  You can't really load fast powders with heavier bullets because you get that pressure spike that you guys have been discussing.  With the fast powder/heavy bullet combination you reach your peak pressure long before you get any real good velocity.  It doesn't matter if you are talking about pistol or rifle loads; as you go more towards heavier bullets in any given caliber, you will see the powders listed are slower burning powders.

Powderman81

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Fast powders are generally loaded with lighter bullets.  You can't really load fast powders with heavier bullets because you get that pressure spike that you guys have been discussing.  With the fast powder/heavy bullet combination you reach your peak pressure long before you get any real good velocity.  It doesn't matter if you are talking about pistol or rifle loads; as you go more towards heavier bullets in any given caliber, you will see the powders listed are slower burning powders.

Powderman81



Boy, I better throw out the N320 and TG I use to make major in 40 with then, since there's no way I'm getting any real good velocity safely. To say nothing of my N310!
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Lol.

I've listed over and over, ramcomp, TW, nitro, ect. That's what data I gave in my other post... RAMCOMP. And that was in reply to someone mentioning 310. So you may need to find some clarity, not I. I clearly know you can't make a load using the aforementioned powders, a 115/124, and be within specs pressures. 

Edit: matter of fact, go re-read the thread title... "fastest powder w lowest charge weight"... might as well recommend some R1 for the guy since allegedly you can make safe pressures with light weight bullets. Lol



Here's another gem of yours:

310 is up there with ramcomp, tite wad, nitro 100, etc. Those are best used with heavy bullets, as the charge weights are low.


Again, your inexperience is showing. A low charge weight doesn't mean a lower peak pressure is reached, or the combo is any safer. In fact, just about any reloader would agree that fast powders with heavy bullets are a much more volatile combination than fast powders with light bullets. But here you are letting us know that making major in 40 with Clays and 200 GR bullets is OK because lower charge weights are used, but making minor with RS Comp and 124s is not.

I think I've made my point here.
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On 8/23/2016 at 0:42 PM, thompsoncustom said:

Just was wondering which of the fastest powders had the lowest charge weight to reach the same velocity. An example is red dot is faster than titegroup but it takes less of a charge of TG to reach the same velocity as the red dot load. Just as a reference im working with 124 9mm loads most of the time.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/understanding-powder-efficiency

Thinking only in terms of availability and efficiency, I think TG is a good place to start.  If you are running a comp then I would use a slower powder and light bullet combo for more gas.  

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I'm talking about 9 minor, as I've been all along. Don't start reaching with including 40.

Do you comprehend at all?

You have Nitro and a 124. Let's pretend 2.2 is max. You load  (hypothetically) 2.0 grains. It goes 850 fps. You load 2.2 it goes 900. You load 2.6 it goes 975. You load 2.8 it goes PF. 

2.2 is hypothetical book max. It took 2.8 to make PF. Therefore, you can't load Nitro and make PF without 1. Going over max, and 2. Probably hitting a massive pressure spike with that type of powder. 

I don't care about the heavy bullet combo, or 40. I not talking about either one. My point is, THE PURE CHARGE WEIGHT of the "fastest" powder can't be used to make PF within spec, WITH A 115/124. 



That is very different than this;

You will significantly exceed max pressure using fast powder and 124s. You will no doubt go +p+ before you even reach PF.



Also, if you're qualifying # 2 in your list with a "probably" you shouldn't include it, since it's just a guess. You may as well say "it probably won't accurate", "it probably will be snappy", or any more of the many "probably"s one could throw in.

To say nothing of the fact that the book max reflects the projectile used in the book, loaded to the OAL in the book (that's a pretty important one), in the books factory test setup. Loading long is one way to reduce pressures for a given load with minor impact on velocity, and something experienced loaders take into account.

When you paint with a broad brush, as you did in your very first post here, you're going to be wrong.
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124 GR. BERB HBRN TP

Starting Loads Starting Load: Minimum load required. If a starting load is not populated, it often denotes a subsonic load.

Maximum Loads

Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.

C.O.L. C.O.L.: Cartridge Overall Length

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s) Velocity: The speed of the bullet in flight.

Pressure Pressure: The force exerted by burning powder measured in Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) or Pounds per Square Inch (PSI).

Grs. Grains: If the value is followed by a C, it denotes a compressed load.

Vel. (ft/s) Velocity: The speed of the bullet in flight.

Pressure Pressure: The force exerted by burning powder measured in Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) or Pounds per Square Inch (PSI).

124 GR. BERB HBRN TP

Manufacturer Hodgdon

Powder Titegroup

Bullet Diameter .356"

C.O.L. 1.150"

Starting Load

Grains 3.6

Velocity (ft/s) 957

Pressure 27,700 PSI

Maximum Load

Grains 4.1

Velocity (ft/s) 1,057

Pressure 32,700 PSI

124 GR. BERB HBRN TP

Manufacturer Hodgdon

Powder Clays

Bullet Diameter .356"

C.O.L. 1.150"

Starting Load

Grains 2.7

Velocity (ft/s) 791

Pressure 27,900 PSI

Maximum Load

Grains 3.0

Velocity (ft/s) 857

 

This is from Hodgdon site for reloading. Was looking for Solo 1000 for a 124 JHP, runs well.

In MVHO for what it is worth.

Thanks,

Mike

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48 minutes ago, mlm said:

Was looking for Solo 1000 for a 124 JHP, runs well.

Hey Mike, depending on your OAL, ~3.8gr should be about right with Solo1000 under a JHP, here's what I have out of my CZ:
3.6gr under 125gr SNS @ 1.080" - 129pf

4.0gr under 124gr Xtreme @1.140" - 135pf

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7 hours ago, peterthefish said:

 


Boy, I better throw out the N320 and TG I use to make major in 40 with then, since there's no way I'm getting any real good velocity safely. To say nothing of my N310!

 

I said generally, not every time.  You can load whatever you like to make major.  In your case you're shooting .40.  Look at the Hodgdon data...you can use TG to make major but there are more (slower) powders listed that shoot faster than TG.  Particularly with the heavy bullets.  Take the 180gr BERB FP...it gives you 988fps @ 31900psi.  There are six slower powders listed with that same bullet that will give you more velocity than that.  If you look at all the rest of the bullet/powders combinations listed for the .40 TG is down towards the bottom in velocity on every one.

I'm glad you can throw smaller amounts of powder and still make major.  B)

Powderman81

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14 hours ago, ARy said:

Lol.

I've listed over and over, ramcomp, TW, nitro, ect. That's what data I gave in my other post... RAMCOMP. And that was in reply to someone mentioning 310. So you may need to find some clarity, not I. I clearly know you can't make a load using the aforementioned powders, a 115/124, and be within specs pressures. 

Edit: matter of fact, go re-read the thread title... "fastest powder w lowest charge weight"... might as well recommend some R1 for the guy since allegedly you can make safe pressures with light weight bullets. Lol

 

Actually according to quickload I can make minor with a 130gr bullet and Norma R1 without even going above 30k psi. I think a lot of people assume that just because a powder is one line faster on the burn rate chart that it must produce a higher peak pressure vs one just a tad slower and that is not the case more times than you would think.

Like I said earlier I wasn't looking for any load data just powder comparison really like powder A burns so fast and takes X grains while powder B burns faster and takes less grains kind of thing.

Don't worry I'm not new to reloading so I don't think I'll blow myself up or atleast I haven't yet with my 50gr or 175gr 9mm bullets :huh:  

Edited by thompsoncustom
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  • 3 weeks later...

Fast powders with light bullets are not automatic pressure builders. Each powder has a burn characteristic. Each bullet has a characteristic of hardness and diameter that create added or lessened resistance for a given weight. Fast powders generally build pressure quicker in the pressure curve as compared to slower powders. General physics tells us pressure will be affected by the mass the pressure is pushing against to propel. For example given the same powder and charge weight (not recommended to do between bullet weight, consult a loading manual), heavier bullets will generate higher pressures in the chamber in order to produce the needed energy to propel the greater mass as the movement will theoretically occur latter in the pressure curve. A lighter bullet will require less energy to begin propelling it and theoretically begin movement sooner in the pressure curve. Now you have other factors to affect this; bullet seating depth, short COL will increase pressures in the same load vs. long COL. Crimp and how much of it can increase pressures ( not as significant as COL but does affect it). So a blanket statement of fast powders with light bullets are more prone to pressure hazards is simply not true. I've shot 9mm minor loads with 124's at 130 pf with fast powders (mainly TG & Bullseye) and never saw a problem with it. When I shot 147's with the same powders I saw no problems either. As long as you keep to the published data and COL there is no worries. 

So a true blanket statement is "any caliber, any bullet, and any appropriate powder for the caliber can be dangerous if you don't pay attention to your published load data during development"

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  • 5 months later...
Powders I have first hand experience with that have low charge weights and work in 9mm:
Clay dot - very similar to clays but seems slightly less spikey. Very clean with decent accuracy.
American Select - very good powder that is easy to load, accurate, and clean.
Nobel Vectan GM3 - another very good powder that behaves well, is accurate and clean.  It is single based and cheap.
All of these work well for gamer minor loads using bullets in the 115 - 147gr range with no drama.
Other powders would be e3, red dot, 700x, n310/n320,etc.  
 
 
 

Bamboo,

What is your load with American Select? I am looking for an alternative to Titegroup to try.

Thanks,
Chopper


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46 minutes ago, Chopper94 said:


Bamboo,

What is your load with American Select? I am looking for an alternative to Titegroup to try.

Thanks,
Chopper
 

You might look into Prima V and Prima SV. I've heard lots of good things about them in 9 minor

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48 minutes ago, Chopper94 said:

Any suggestions for loadings using Prima? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 Lots of info

 

Plug this into google & get after it - 

 

prima load site:forums.brianenos.com

 

 

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Chopper94 -

Out of a DW PM9 1911 (5")  I get the following with American Select:

147gr SNS FP at 1.135" OAL

3.0gr American Select = 126pf

3.2gr American Select = 129pf

 

125gr Lead RN at 1.120" OAL

3.8gr American Select = 128pf

4.0gr American Select = 131pf

If using coated bullets add about 2-4 pf to the above. 

 

As a reference this is what I get with Nobel Vectan GM3:

147gr Bayou FP at 1.135" OAL

3.0gr GM3= 128pf

 

125gr Lead RN at 1.120" OAL

3.3gr GM3= 125pf

3.6gr GM3 = 131pf

If using coated bullets add about 2-4 pf to the above. 

 

135gr Bayou RN at 1.140" OAL

3.2gr GM3= 127pf

3.4gr GM3 = 132pf

 

All of these are accurate (<2" at 25yd off bags). and both are very clean burning powders with soft recoil.  Nobel says GM3 is around AA#5 or SR7625 and I just am not getting chrono data that supports that...it seems to be a much faster burning powder...similar to American Select.   Interestingly, in PCC I can load 2.8gr of either GM3 or AS with a 135gr SNS and get the same velocities (130pf), same POI, and same recoil feeling. 

 

 

Good Luck and always use a chrono when developing loads!  ;)

Edited by Bamboo
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Chopper94 -
Out of a DW PM9 1911 (5")  I get the following with American Select:
147gr SNS FP at 1.135" OAL
3.0gr American Select = 126pf
3.2gr American Select = 129pf
 
125gr Lead RN at 1.120" OAL
3.8gr American Select = 128pf
4.0gr American Select = 131pf
If using coated bullets add about 2-4 pf to the above. 
 
As a reference this is what I get with Nobel Vectan GM3:
147gr Bayou FP at 1.135" OAL
3.0gr GM3= 128pf
 
125gr Lead RN at 1.120" OAL
3.3gr GM3= 125pf
3.6gr GM3 = 131pf
If using coated bullets add about 2-4 pf to the above. 
 
135gr Bayou RN at 1.140" OAL
3.2gr GM3= 127pf
3.4gr GM3 = 132pf
 
All of these are accurate (  
 
Good Luck and always use a chrono when developing loads!  [emoji6]



Bamboo,

Thanks for the info! I'm gonna be trying out a American Select load behind some SNS 125 RN (no lube grove) in my Glock 34. Hopefully the smoke will be less compared to my from my Titegroup loads.



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