thompsoncustom Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Just was wondering which of the fastest powders had the lowest charge weight to reach the same velocity. An example is red dot is faster than titegroup but it takes less of a charge of TG to reach the same velocity as the red dot load. Just as a reference im working with 124 9mm loads most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Maybe Titewad or E3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Bullseye, N320 and WW231 are all very fast, and require a LOW charge I don't know which is The Lowest ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruleyoutoo1911 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Titewad would be up there. my charge weights with Clays have been fairly low as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 2.8gr of Clays (Aussie) under 147gr bayou bullet got me 126pf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Clays is certainly in the running. It's fast enough to make some people nervous, but I really like the way it feels in 9mm under heavier bullets. (130/135/147gr) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Powders I have first hand experience with that have low charge weights and work in 9mm: Clay dot - very similar to clays but seems slightly less spikey. Very clean with decent accuracy. American Select - very good powder that is easy to load, accurate, and clean. Nobel Vectan GM3 - another very good powder that behaves well, is accurate and clean. It is single based and cheap. All of these work well for gamer minor loads using bullets in the 115 - 147gr range with no drama. Other powders would be e3, red dot, 700x, n310/n320,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Depends on the gun a bit but I get 135 pf +\- with 3.1 of N310 with a plated 147 @ 1.160" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 17 minutes ago, ARy said: You will significantly exceed max pressure using fast powder and 124s. You will no doubt go +p+ before you even reach PF. Don't agree with this at all. N310 and 124s works great at minor pf and does not seem to be high pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 40 minutes ago, ARy said: You will significantly exceed max pressure using fast powder and 124s. You will no doubt go +p+ before you even reach PF. ARy, I think the OP is looking for a Minor load - not a Major load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 39 minutes ago, ARy said: "does not seem" Okay. I'm not saying don't use it. I can just tell you that pressure will spike with light bullets and really fast powder. Ive chrono'd really fast lowder and I've also gotten pressure data run by the guy that writes the manual for Ramshot. Additionally, your accuracy will be tragic. And by the time you up your charge to even get a halfway accurate load with really fast powder and light bullets, well... Not that simple. My fast powder light bullet loads have been very accurate. Blanket statements when it comes to reloading are almost always wrong, better to stick with personal experience rather than generalizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Don't have extensive data handy but the load is. 124 rn xtreme 1.145 3.4 grains n310 128pf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsoncustom Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) All this guessing on pressures geez. Garmil i put the above load in quickload and it comes out to 32753psi so below +p range. Im not looking for any load data just which fast powders produce minor PF with less of a charge. Id just use quickload to compare all the powders but it is missing some pistol powders. Edited August 24, 2016 by thompsoncustom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 5 hours ago, ARy said: 1. What's your group at 20 & 25 yards. 2. Post your chrono data. Edit: That's the problem with Internet load data, so many people don't understand how pressure relates to charge weight. I was guilty of it too, until I had a long talk w KneelingAtlas. Your fast powder, light weight bullet may work, but I can assure you, you are flirting with pressure spikes. I have load and chrono data. I have extensively talked with manual writers about pressure and specific powder (s). So before some poor, unsuspecting new reloader reads this and starts dropping large charge weights of fast powder, post YOUR data so we can work through it. Maybe I'm not remembering that conversation the same way you are, but if I remember correctly you were getting erratic results and poor accuracy with fast powder and heavy bullets, right? In my experience, at a given power factor, with a given powder, the heavier the bullet, the greater the pressure, just ask the Limited guys shooting 200gr pills over Clays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 37 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said: Maybe I'm not remembering that conversation the same way you are, but if I remember correctly you were getting erratic results and poor accuracy with fast powder and heavy bullets, right? In my experience, at a given power factor, with a given powder, the heavier the bullet, the greater the pressure, just ask the Limited guys shooting 200gr pills over Clays Agreed on both counts... I don't think you can make minor pf with it but trail boss is really fast, snapped like little cheerios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 2 hours ago, thompsoncustom said: All this guessing on pressures geez. Garmil i put the above load in quickload and it comes out to 32753psi so below +p range. Im not looking for any load data just which fast powders produce minor PF with less of a charge. Id just use quickload to compare all the powders but it is missing some pistol powders. Quickload estimates pressure, and can be off by quite a bit from actual lab tested pressure data. It's a great tool, but it has limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 On 8/23/2016 at 0:42 PM, thompsoncustom said: Just was wondering which of the fastest powders had the lowest charge weight to reach the same velocity. An example is red dot is faster than titegroup but it takes less of a charge of TG to reach the same velocity as the red dot load. Just as a reference im working with 124 9mm loads most of the time. Check loading manuals. Manuals like Hornady and Sierra show the charge weights in 50 fps intervals. They will give you actual charge weights and velocities. If you're looking for 1000 fps, see which powders use the least charge weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Does the question matter? The shooting matters. The loading is boring. Use Titegroup. Buy a lot of it. Stay safe. Shoot a lot. Powder is so incredibly cheap per shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsoncustom Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 1 hour ago, superdude said: Quickload estimates pressure, and can be off by quite a bit from actual lab tested pressure data. It's a great tool, but it has limitations. Ya its best to also check the quickload estimated velocity against chrono velocity and see how they match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 9 hours ago, ARy said: Edit: That's the problem with Internet load data, so many people don't understand how pressure relates to charge weight. I was guilty of it too, until I had a long talk w KneelingAtlas. Your fast powder, light weight bullet may work, but I can assure you, you are flirting with pressure spikes. I have load and chrono data. I have extensively talked with manual writers about pressure and specific powder (s). So before some poor, unsuspecting new reloader reads this and starts dropping large charge weights of fast powder, post YOUR data so we can work through it. Actually the problems (as KA pointed out) are generally with fast powders and HEAVY bullets. a minor PF load with clays and say a 124gn RN at say 130pf will have a lower max pressure than a load with clays and a 147 RN at the same 130pf, by a significant margin. This the the big danger many new loaders get into. heavy pills with super fast powder like clays, N310 or bullseye. In fact a minor load I've run (9mm, clays, 147 RN FMJ 132pf) is higher max pressure (and a faster spike) than a load I run in major (38 super, 124gn RN FMJ, 3N38 170pf) according to a ballistics expert who needed a lot of data and some serious maths way beyond my comprehension to calculate. my own anecdotal evidence supports his finding though. fired primers are not the best indicator of pressure but they are one of the few signs we have (without a pressure barrel). using the same fed SPP in both the above loads produces a noticeably flatter primer in the 9mm minor loads including some primer flow. this support an assertion that they are very high pressure loads. The safest option is medium to slower burning powders with light bullets, but fast powders with light bullets are fairly safe too and much safer than when people jump straight into 147s and clays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 4 hours ago, kneelingatlas said: Maybe I'm not remembering that conversation the same way you are, but if I remember correctly you were getting erratic results and poor accuracy with fast powder and heavy bullets, right? In my experience, at a given power factor, with a given powder, the heavier the bullet, the greater the pressure, just ask the Limited guys shooting 200gr pills over Clays agreed. that matches my experience too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 ARy, pretty sure you are misremembering that and I wasn't there. Heavy bullet + fast powder = more pressure, not light bullets. I would bet more guns have been blown up by people loading 200 or 220 grain 40's over fast powder than most anything else. OP: why do you want to know this information, is my question? It seems like find something cheap, consistent and decent to load and just go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 You will significantly exceed max pressure using fast powder and 124s. You will no doubt go +p+ before you even reach PF.I'm just going to bring this post up under your post above to provide some context about what you bring to conversation. Titegroup is a pretty commonly used fast powder and can easily be used to make minor safely. Your conversation with someone at Western Powders aside (assuming your recollection of that conversation is better than your recollection of your conversation with Kneeling Atlas), it's clear you're a bit green when it comes to reloading. You might do well to soak up a little more knowledge in that arena, because at the rate you're giving it away what little you have won't last long. /PS +P+ isn't a Spec. I'm assuming you meant to say 'beyond +P'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Perhaps you didn't read the post of yours that I quoted? "Fast". Not fastest. Not powders X, Y, and Z. Again, I'm just trying to provide a little context for those who are reading your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) Vihtavuori has stopped publishing N310 loads for a few cartridges, including 9mm. Some of their N320 max loads are barely making Minor. I think they know what they are doing... Edited August 25, 2016 by perttime Meant to say "barely making Minor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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