CHA-LEE Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I have a questions about when its legal to have the safety Off during the make ready process and time before the actual start of the stage. I have listed below the new PCC rules that define the gun ready condition and required safety position. These rules state that the safety must be applied. But these rules do not define "When" the safety must to be applied. In the Handgun rules the "When" is defined as before the pistol is holstered. If you holster a pistol with the safety off and you get DQed for unsafe gun handling. How is the "When" being defined or enforced on the PCC's? I have seen several instances in local matches where PCC shooters never apply their safety after making ready or flick off the safety just before the Buzzer goes off. Neither scenario resulted in a DQ for unsafe gun handling. Shouldn't there be definitive time line stipulating when the safety must be applied and when it can be turned off? PCC 8.1.6 PCC Ready Condition: normally the carbine will be prepared with a loaded chamber, loaded magazine inserted, and safety applied. Other ready conditions may be specified, and may be identical to the handgun ready condition, with the exception of holstering. PCC 8.2.3 N/A for carbines. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) How about this? If safety applied is part of the ready condition, they moved out of the ready position if they flicked it off prior to the beep. At that point, you stop them and restart with the safety applied. This would follow with 8.2.1: 8.2.1 The handgun is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing, and is in compliance with the requirements of the relevant Division. As to when it goes on during make ready, the only thing I can think of is that it must be applied before "Are you ready?". I've seen plenty of Limited/SS/Open shooters go through make ready, then flick the safety on just before holstering. As there is no holster, flicking it on just prior to "Are you ready?" (or waiting until it's on to give this command) would amount to the same thing. Edited August 17, 2016 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 That sounds "Reasonable" I guess. But I kind of expect that not having the safety applied would be a more significant safety violation than simply stopping the shooter and basically giving them a "Do Over" for performing an unsafe gun handling action. The Handgun rules clearly define when the safety must be applied and its a DQ offense for flipping the safety off while still in the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I've asked Troy this question twice. He has not answered. If you holster a single action handgun with the safety off it's a DQ. My opinion is that if you take the start position with a PCC with the safety off it should be the same, a DQ. Since DNROI doesn't have an answer, I'm going to treat it that way until I hear otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 As a Match Director this is one of the items I need to get resolved or clarified before we allow PCC to participate in our matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I don't think a safety off at make ready or at the beep should be a DQable offense as the shooter is in control of the gun. There is no provision for dqing a shooter with a handgun for the safety being off WHILE THE GUN IS IN THEIR HAND. A restart sounds reasonable to me, however I have not studied the PCC rules so, this may not be the case in PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech32 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 55 minutes ago, bthoefer said: I've asked Troy this question twice. He has not answered. If you holster a single action handgun with the safety off it's a DQ. My opinion is that if you take the start position with a PCC with the safety off it should be the same, a DQ. Since DNROI doesn't have an answer, I'm going to treat it that way until I hear otherwise. I would definitely argue if you tried to DQ me for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, RJH said: I don't think a safety off at make ready or at the beep should be a DQable offense as the shooter is in control of the gun. There is no provision for dqing a shooter with a handgun for the safety being off WHILE THE GUN IS IN THEIR HAND. A restart sounds reasonable to me, however I have not studied the PCC rules so, this may not be the case in PCC. It's not specifically addressed by the PCC rules addendum. Since it isn't addressed by the PCC rules, the remaining pistol rules apply, which for all other divisions the safety off when the hammer is back is a DQ. I think it's BS that this hasn't been addressed. I've brought it up to DNROI BEFORE the rules were released for PCC and his response was that he'd look into it. I asked again when the PCC rules were released and didn't address this and got no response. I emailed Foley tonight because this thread got me thinking of it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, Tech32 said: I would definitely argue if you tried to DQ me for that. Argue all you want, you're still getting DQd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 10.5.11 HOLSTERING a loaded handgun in any of the following conditions. A single action self loading pistol with the safety not applied. Notice it says holstering, not holstered. If you start the gun into the holster with the safety off you are holstering the gun and can be DQd before you finish and remove your hand from the pistol. It happened at A6 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, RJH said: I don't think a safety off at make ready or at the beep should be a DQable offense as the shooter is in control of the gun. There is no provision for dqing a shooter with a handgun for the safety being off WHILE THE GUN IS IN THEIR HAND. A restart sounds reasonable to me, however I have not studied the PCC rules so, this may not be the case in PCC. 10.5.11 HOLSTERING a loaded handgun in any of the following conditions. A single action self loading pistol with the safety not applied. Notice it says holstering, not holstered. If you start the gun into the holster with the safety off you are holstering the gun and can be DQd before you finish and remove your hand from the pistol. It happened at A6 2013 Edited August 18, 2016 by bthoefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Are we holstering a PCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Appendix D8-12 Rules References All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced. PCC handling is specifically referenced in the PCC rules addendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said: Are we holstering a PCC? I don't think so, which is my point, but sometimes people like to throw the DQ hammer quick:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech32 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 47 minutes ago, RJH said: I don't think so, which is my point, but sometimes people like to throw the DQ hammer quick:-) Yep. It has to be pointed downrange so as to not break the 180 anyway. I see this more of a procedural issue rather than a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 3 hours ago, bthoefer said: 10.5.11 HOLSTERING a loaded handgun in any of the following conditions. A single action self loading pistol with the safety not applied. Notice it says holstering, not holstered. If you start the gun into the holster with the safety off you are holstering the gun and can be DQd before you finish and remove your hand from the pistol. It happened at A6 2013. That was and is a chicken shit interpretation of the wording in that rule. If the gun is not in the holster the safety does not have to be engaged. What about drawing and flicking the safety off instantly? Is that a DQ? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Sarge said: That was and is a chicken shit interpretation of the wording in that rule. Yep, I have called a couple of shooters for that but every time it was after they took their hand off the gun. To be clear, I don't think its a good practice to holster the gun with the safety off. On the PCC side I don't think we have a safety issue as the gun is pointed downrange and is not considered inert as it is in a holster. I can stop the shooter for doing some other unsafe thing. I would not start a shooter with the safety off on a PCC but I don't think that should be a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 A rifle in hand is not a pistol in holster. As long as the safety is on any time before "are you ready" I'm willing to consider that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Ahhh, a breath of fresh air first thing in the morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Can you really tell if the safety is on or off with an ar type rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, AWLAZS said: Can you really tell if the safety is on or off with an ar type rifle? I think most of the time no, especially if the gun is held. However, I think when it comes to safety shooters will try to do the right thing, even if they do occasionally fail. Edited August 18, 2016 by Gary Stevens Incomplete thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 As I can see, there are a lot of opinions and variants of rule interpretations. Is there any way that we can get an official stance from NROI on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip3 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 " Any firearm that begins a stage from the low ready shall require the shooter to start with the finger off the trigger. Said firearm may start with hammer cocked and, if applicable, with the safety off. For holster starts see section 8 number 8." That is from the steel challenge rule set. Seems reasonable. Table starts or any start that results in picking up the gun should probably be required to start with the safety on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 Steel Challenge rules don't apply to USPSA Handgun matches. The PCC Rules already state that the safety must be on as I listed in the first post. My question is when does the safety actually have to be on in the make ready process before having it off is considered a violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said: As I can see, there are a lot of opinions and variants of rule interpretations. Is there any way that we can get an official stance from NROI on this? Yes, there is a way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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