PCC Safety Engagement / Disengagement Timeing

[ChuckS]

Applying the safety is a start condition and there is no time-related penalty. It has to be applied for the start, period. Now, if the COF requires a hands-off start, like on a table, the 10.5.3 comes into play. If the shooter placed the loaded firearm on something without the safety applied, DQ per 10.5.3.4

 

[bthoefer]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

As I can see, there are a lot of opinions and variants of rule interpretations. Is there any way that we can get an official stance from NROI on this?

I've emailed DNROI twice with this question and I emailed Foley about it last night. 

He responded that if hands are off the gun it is a DQ but didn't have an answer for the rest of the question.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bthoefer

[JAFO]

4 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

Can you really tell if the safety is on or off with an ar type rifle? 

Perhaps this is not true for all the varieties out there, but a lot of single-sided AR safeties have a line scribed into the off side that you can see rotate when the safety is moved.  Ambi-safeties have a lever on the off side.  As the safety sits higher than a shooter's hand on the grip, you can see the rotation when they flip the safety (if you're looking).  Of course, this will depend on body positioning relative to the RO at the start position.

[Tech32]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

Applying the safety is a start condition and there is no time-related penalty. It has to be applied for the start, period. Now, if the COF requires a hands-off start, like on a table, the 10.5.3 comes into play. If the shooter placed the loaded firearm on something without the safety applied, DQ per 10.5.3.4

 

This!^^^^^^^^^^ finally a common sense approach!

[bishop414]

5 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

Can you really tell if the safety is on or off with an ar type rifle? 

Most of the time, yes.  If not, ask to see it before starting shooter.  In 3-gun, flicking the safety off earlier is normally a procedural penalty if not caught in time.  Like creeping, if you can catch it, restart the shooter, if not, penalty.

Also, AR safeties cannot be applied until the hammer is cocked.  My opinion, once the shooter is ready, engage safety and wait for the "are you ready" command.

[norbs007]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

Applying the safety is a start condition and there is no time-related penalty. It has to be applied for the start, period. Now, if the COF requires a hands-off start, like on a table, the 10.5.3 comes into play. If the shooter placed the loaded firearm on something without the safety applied, DQ per 10.5.3.4

 

Boom!  Don't make it more complicated... thank you ChuckS!

[CHA-LEE]

ChuckS> That makes sense but there still needs to be a defined point in the process to determine what the "Start" is. The Handgun rules define the COF starting once the Make Ready Command is given. So that "Start" does not work because AR safeties can not be engaged if the hammer isn't cocked. You can't cock the hammer until Make Ready is given. If the rules determine that the safety must be applied before the "Stand By" command is given, that would set a definitive time when the safety must be engaged or a penalty / DQ will be assessed. The other gaping hole here is what the remedial action is if the safety is not applied before the "Start" of the stage? Procedural? DQ? Kick in the Nuts? Heckling from Squad? Nothing?

Without clearly defined safety rules I can't in good faith deploy PCC at my match.

[JWBaldree]

CHA-LEE, think 1911 / 2011 for a moment. Like an AR, the safety cannot be applied until the gun is cocked, and that cannot happen until the make ready command is given.

Pistol shooters engage their safeties at different times during LAMR, depending on their routines and preferences and no one particularly cares, as long as it's done before the gun is holstered. Since we can't holster an AR, I would defer giving the stand by command until the competitor has assumed the required start position.

What needs clarifying, and what you pointed out, is what exactly is the penalty for disengaging the safety after stand by but before the beep.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Darqusoull13]

Cha-lee, I see your point about how you feel the rules are incomplete. PCC 5.2.1.2 indicates chamber flags must be used but PCC 5.2.1.6 indicates that the bolt can be locked open OR a chamber flag can be used. While one could reasonably assume in all instances a bolt locked open would be a sufficient (better?) alternative to a chamber flag, that was not what was written. I agree that the rules need a good bit of work. Moreover, I understand the sentiment that HQ may not be providing sufficient support (again) for a new division. 

However, PCC is getting new people into the sport. We had more PCC shooters than Revolver, Carry Optics and Single Stack combined at our last USPSA match. I'd rather offer PCC as a division and get people involved in action shooting than not. I don't want to let HQ's failures kill the new division before it starts. I know an individual recommendation is meaningless in this situation as the rules, safety rules above all, should be clearly stated. I'll make a recommendation anyways based on what we have done. Write the start position into the WSB for PCC with the language you prefer. 

At make ready, if the competitor has loaded and the safety is not on the start position has not been met and they are not done making ready. Verbally remind them of the start position. Here, heckling from the squad would be appropriate. If the safety gets flicked off between standby and the start signal, that's touchy.That could be considered unsportsmanlike or failing to comply with a match officials direction but I absolutely agree that this needs to be clearly addressed by HQ. We have considered disengaging the safety after standby and before the start signal a procedural penalty, deserving of severe heckling including potentially calling into question the individual's lineage. Usually I'm on the squad where the only person not heckling is the RO though...

[Patrick Scott]

9 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Cha-lee, I see your point about how you feel the rules are incomplete. PCC 5.2.1.2 indicates chamber flags must be used but PCC 5.2.1.6 indicates that the bolt can be locked open OR a chamber flag can be used. While one could reasonably assume in all instances a bolt locked open would be a sufficient (better?)

Those two rules, talk about two different situations and to me do not conflict 

5.2.1.2 is in reference to " when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage."

5.2.1.6 is in reference to "Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area"

[RJH]

4 hours ago, Chip3 said:

" Any firearm that begins a stage from the low ready shall require the shooter to start with the finger off the trigger. Said firearm may start with hammer cocked and, if applicable, with the safety off. For holster starts see section 8 number 8."

That is from the steel challenge rule set. Seems reasonable. Table starts or any start that results in picking up the gun should probably be required to start with the safety on.

I get that this is a Steel Challenge rule and so not directly applicable here but, IMO this is the best way for low ready starts and the way USPSA should have written the rule. 

[Darqusoull13]

But both appear under PCC 5.2.1 which is transporting PCC's. Why the discrepancy where transport from stage to stage requires a chamber flag but from staging area to start area open bolt is perfectly ok? The unload commands allow for bolt held open, so at what point does the flag go in between stages or does it need to? 

In any case, PCC 8.1.6 indicates that other ready conditions may be specified which might be the simplest solution to the initial question of when the safety needs to be on. Other than having a complete set of rules from the beginning. 

[ChuckS]

5 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Applying the safety is a start ready condition and there is no time-related penalty. It has to be applied for prior to issuing the "are you ready?" command start, period. Now, if the COF requires a hands-off starting position, like on a table, the 10.5.3 comes into play. If the shooter placed the loaded firearm on something without the safety applied, DQ per 10.5.3.4

 

Did a little editing.. My bad for using the s-word. See above...

As an aside, I have run some PCC shooters and the only issue that I had with the shooters was convincing them that they had to close the bolt and pull the trigger on the empty chamber and then flag. But, they all did it and there were no other issues. I saw nothing but good gun handling*.

 

ETA: * These shooters were very experienced USPSA shooters. Now, if the fabled "new shooter who joined because the PCC division is being offered" shows up, things may not go as smooth. But I am guessing it would not be much different from a first pistol match shooter.

Edited August 18, 2016 by ChuckS

[Patrick Scott]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of NOT using the safety for PCC hands on starts. Think about it this way... We are safe running around with a loaded and cocked hand gun with the safety off, I think we would be plenty safe just standing there waiting for the beep with the rifle safety off(just like Steel Challenge).  For hands off starts, absolutely have the safety on, just like the handguns.   I like this because I think it would simplify things.   Im open to having my mind changed though. 

[ChuckS]

9 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of NOT using the safety for PCC hands on starts. Think about it this way... We are safe running around with a loaded and cocked hand gun with the safety off, I think we would be plenty safe just standing there waiting for the beep with the rifle safety off(just like Steel Challenge).  For hands off starts, absolutely have the safety on, just like the handguns.   I like this because I think it would simplify things.   Im open to having my mind changed though. 

I don't disagree with your logic but as an old RO, I only want one safety condition to remember. Besides, coming at PCC from a USPSA background, safety on* is a normal thing.

 

*DA Production guns aside

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, ChuckS said:

I don't disagree with your logic but as an old RO, I only want one safety condition to remember. Besides, coming at PCC from a USPSA background, safety on* is a normal thing.

 

*DA Production guns aside

LOL, as a DA PRD shooter do you know if my CZ is supposed to be fully decocked or on the halfcock notch at a ROs quick glance?  Thats some of my point. The RO is usually on the right side of a right handed shooter, I think its just as tough to see if an AR safety is on as it is whether or not my CZ has a safety or decocker on the left side.  Trigger finger though, thats easy to see.  I think this is good talk and I hope the powers to be are reading in. 

[ChuckS]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

LOL, as a DA PRD shooter do you know if my CZ is supposed to be fully decocked or on the halfcock notch at a ROs quick glance?  Thats some of my point. The RO is usually on the right side of a right handed shooter, I think its just as tough to see if an AR safety is on as it is whether or not my CZ has a safety or decocker on the left side.  Trigger finger though, thats easy to see.  I think this is good talk and I hope the powers to be are reading in. 

Yup, I do know. But then, I shot a SP-01 back in 2006. (holy crap, that was 10 years ago!)  It is not very hard to see! The AR lever is fairly obvious but again, I have shot one sided and ambi safetys. But, sure as shit, someone will screw up and leave it off for a table start. One way is best.

[CHA-LEE]

I honestly don't care what the final decision from NROI ends up being. What I do care about is it not being properly documented right now. To me, not having clearly defined and documented safety rules and associated penalties for breaking such rules is unacceptable.

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Yup, I do know. But then, I shot a SP-01 back in 2006. (holy crap, that was 10 years ago!)  It is not very hard to see! The AR lever is fairly obvious but again, I have shot one sided and ambi safetys. But, sure as shit, someone will screw up and leave it off for a table start. One way is best.

 

1 minute ago, CHA-LEE said:

I honestly don't care what the final decision from NROI ends up being. What I do care about is it not being properly documented right now. To me, not having clearly defined and documented safety rules and associated penalties for breaking such rules is unacceptable.

ChuckS, thats cheating since you know the gun  

CHA-LEE, I agree. We have rules for a reason and when they are unclear or lacking it gives problems. Hopefully since its a provisional division the rules will be easier to update when issues like this arise.  I kind of understand some of the lack of comm to member questions at this point. I am going on failth that the NROI is taking in all the issue we are finding and working on solutions.  If an MD or club wants to abstain until things are clear I can't fault them for that. For the clubs that are running it, kudos. Find the issues and report.