Variance in bullet weight question and other 9mm load help

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, pdxrealtor said:

No one with any feed back huh? Hmmmmm.... 

Too long of a post to really focus on. What feed back do you want? 

I personally think you should just focus on learning to make consistant rounds and THEN start over analyzing everything that goes into it.

you want to be 10 feet from the chrono. This is what USPSA sets chronoes at. It also avoids gas messing with readings.

i like to pass a few things on to tinkerers in the reloading department. One, velocity will plateau but pressure keeps rising the more powder you dump in there. Two, some of the flattest primers I have ever seen were found in brass from minor guns running fast powder and heavy bullets. This is why I was once cautioned by a gunsmith that he had seen more guns damaged by undercharged loads than by overcharged loads. Makes perfect sense when you study how pressure can spike.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, pdxrealtor said:

No one with any feed back huh? Hmmmmm.... 

Too long of a post to really focus on. What feed back do you want? 

I personally think you should just focus on learning to make consistant rounds and THEN start over analyzing everything that goes into it.

you want to be 10 feet from the chrono. This is what USPSA sets chronoes at. It also avoids gas messing with readings.

i like to pass a few things on to tinkerers in the reloading department. One, velocity will plateau but pressure keeps rising the more powder you dump in there. Two, some of the flattest primers I have ever seen were found in brass from minor guns running fast powder and heavy bullets. This is why I was once cautioned by a gunsmith that he had seen more guns damaged by undercharged loads than by overcharged loads. Makes perfect sense when you study how pressure can spike.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, pdxrealtor said:

No one with any feed back huh? Hmmmmm.... 

Ugh

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sarge

[Sarge]

Forums are freezing AGAIN

[pdxrealtor]

Sarge - focusing on making consistent rounds is exactly why I'm trying to get this info. 

I'm not confident in anaylyzing pressure signs yet. 

The only variable in the load data I'm using is my bullet which may or may not be close to the bullet in the load data. 

I gave the COL 0.020 more, and started at minimum load. I shot two hundred rounds. A lot chronographed. They came in under the minimum velocities using a barrel that was .6" longer. 

In this situation is it likely (not possible, likely) to still have pressure issues? 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by pdxrealtor

[pdxrealtor]

I will add I've read several articles, some with pictures, and all the good ones state pressure signs may be present but no visible. So, regardless of what these spent casings look like I'd really like to know the answer to my question. 

 

Here's pictures of my some of my spent cases. The picture with the casings that have silver primers is factory ammo. The gold primers (Winchester) are my reloads. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by pdxrealtor

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, pdxrealtor said:

Sarge - focusing on making consistent rounds is exactly why I'm trying to get this info. 

I'm not confident in anaylyzing pressure signs yet. 

The only variable in the load data I'm using is my bullet which may or may not be close to the bullet in the load data. 

I gave the COL 0.020 more, and started at minimum load. I shot two hundred rounds. A lot chronographed. They came in under the minimum velocities using a barrel that was .6" longer. 

In this situation is it likely (not possible, likely) to still have pressure issues? 

 

 

In my opinion, no. If you are running minimum book loads you still have some leeway either up or down. 

 I don't see any pics but if your primers have nice round corners and clean primer indents you are fine. If primer marks look cratered then some pressure is evident. If edges are more square than round then pressure is also evident. Most likely not catastrophic pressure but pressure none the less.

finding exact bullet matches for load data is generally hit or miss for many reasons. About the best you can do is try to find a pic and compare what you have with it. 

[pdxrealtor]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

In my opinion, no. If you are running minimum book loads you still have some leeway either up or down. 

 I don't see any pics but if your primers have nice round corners and clean primer indents you are fine. If primer marks look cratered then some pressure is evident. If edges are more square than round then pressure is also evident. Most likely not catastrophic pressure but pressure none the less.

finding exact bullet matches for load data is generally hit or miss for many reasons. About the best you can do is try to find a pic and compare what you have with it. 

Thanks for your input! The world of reloading can be painful for the perfectionist mind. I like to know the ins and outs, why and why nots and with something like reloading it's hard to figure some of that out by experience. 

 

Hopefully my pictures show up so others can see. I'm pretty confident there are no pressure signs. The one thing that had me second guessing was a mark on some cases shaped like the extractor. After re-reading an article though, I see they talk about this portion of the case being RAISED (from the extractor trying to pull an enlarged case out of the chamber). The marks on my cases are more of a mark or slight indentation. 

 

The next question I would have is how much should I go up in grains? Is it a percentage of how many grains I'm at? 

I'm at the start load of 5.1. In this case it's the 9mm standard. Start load for the +p is 5.7 so this one may be real simple as ..... max load for the no +p is 5.7. That would be about a 12% increase in powder weight. 

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, pdxrealtor said:

Thanks for your input! The world of reloading can be painful for the perfectionist mind. I like to know the ins and outs, why and why nots and with something like reloading it's hard to figure some of that out by experience. 

 

Hopefully my pictures show up so others can see. I'm pretty confident there are no pressure signs. The one thing that had me second guessing was a mark on some cases shaped like the extractor. After re-reading an article though, I see they talk about this portion of the case being RAISED (from the extractor trying to pull an enlarged case out of the chamber). The marks on my cases are more of a mark or slight indentation. 

 

The next question I would have is how much should I go up in grains? Is it a percentage of how many grains I'm at? 

I'm at the start load of 5.1. In this case it's the 9mm standard. Start load for the +p is 5.7 so this one may be real simple as ..... max load for the no +p is 5.7. That would be about a 12% increase in powder weight. 

Depends on what you are trying to do. Are you reloading for competition where there is a PF requirement? Are you just loading general plinking ammo? Or are you loading hunting or SD loads?

i see no reason to load +p loads for anything other than hunting/SD. Uses more powder, puts more stress on the case and gun, and is too harsh for shooting at cans or cardboard. Not to mention reducing your margin for error

[grapemeister]

From the looks of the primers from your reloads it looks like they were shot out of two different guns and one from a third gun, possibly a Glock that somehow got mixed in.  Sorry, I know the observation doesn't really help you any....I'm just curious.    Overall, I think the primers don't look too bad, although it looks like you have some cratering going on with some and some flattening with others.  

Absolutely don't go by my example, but my primers are flat as hell.   It was a concern when I switched to my current bullet and powder combination 5 or 6 years ago,but the gun likes the ammo and they haven't caused damage to the gun.  

[pdxrealtor]

Just plinking. We shoot at a large steel pig 100 yards out at times. I'd like a little more oomph than the numbers we are at with minimum charge. Perhaps between a 1150-1200 fps. I do agree with your points about +p for plinking. 

[pdxrealtor]

2 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

From the looks of the primers from your reloads it looks like they were shot out of two different guns and one from a third gun, possibly a Glock that somehow got mixed in.  Sorry, I know the observation doesn't really help you any....I'm just curious.    Overall, I think the primers don't look too bad, although it looks like you have some cratering going on with some and some flattening with others.  

Absolutely don't go by my example, but my primers are flat as hell.   It was a concern when I switched to my current bullet and powder combination 5 or 6 years ago,but the gun likes the ammo and they haven't caused damage to the gun.  

We used 5 different guns: 

Beretta 92 FS Vertec
2 different CZ 75Bs 
CZ Rammi
Kimber Ultra Carry II

I noticed the flat primers, just a couple, and was wondering if those were possibly high and therefore getting more pressure against the breech face. 

 

I'm not sure why some appear more cratered than others. But the factory ammo in that picture (the ones with the silver primers) appear to have the same amount of cratering on a few. Unless I'm looking through rose colored glasses.... haha. 

 

The only way there could be pressure issues is if my bullet is seated far too deep. That would mean it's a much different profile than the Oregon Trail Laser Cast, or the #356242 listed in the Lyman manual. 

[olstyn]

On 8/17/2016 at 9:56 AM, pdxrealtor said:

We used 5 different guns: 

Beretta 92 FS Vertec
2 different CZ 75Bs 
CZ Rammi
Kimber Ultra Carry II

I noticed the flat primers, just a couple, and was wondering if those were possibly high and therefore getting more pressure against the breech face. 

I'm not sure why some appear more cratered than others. But the factory ammo in that picture (the ones with the silver primers) appear to have the same amount of cratering on a few. Unless I'm looking through rose colored glasses.... haha.

5 different guns is at least a part of why the pressure signs on the primers look different.  Each gun is unique, and even the 2 CZ 75Bs may result in different pressure signs and different velocities with the same ammo.  Most of your primers look fine to me, though; you've got a little bit of flattening here and there, but nothing insane.

As far as how much to increase your charge weight goes, I don't have any personal experience with AA #5, but I imagine you could probably do 0.2 grain increments, load up 10 or 20 at each level, and run them over the chrono to see where you're at.  If you start seeing excessive primer flattening or cratering issues, or you've reached your target velocity, stop and pull any rounds at higher charge weights.

[pdxrealtor]

I'm using Silhouette. I upped from 5.1 to 5.6 considering the low velocities and the fact max loads 6.1 I felt comfortable making the jump. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

48 minutes ago, pdxrealtor said:

I upped from 5.1 to 5.6 considering the low velocities and the fact max loads 6.1 I felt comfortable making the jump. 

Do you know what the velocities are ...

You can end up in trouble if you don't know.  

[pdxrealtor]

^^ thanks. This post is obviously too long. I appreciate all the help. 

I got everything dialed except consistent COL. I'm going to give Dillon a call about that. 

[judgecrater]

On 8/14/2016 at 8:01 PM, ChemistShooter said:

Fairly new loader here too, but I'll pass along what I've seen here. And confirmed for myself, as I'm currently using coated lead.
1. You want the minimum bell. Coated lead appears to require a little more bell than copper.
2.Also just enough on the crimp die to remove the bell. Make some dummy rounds and pull them. There should be no streaks where the coating has been removed. 9mm holds by neck tension only. There should be no crimp. Cartridge width at the case mouth should be exactly the bullet width plus twice the wall thickness. For example, I'm loading .356" with .010" thick wall. Bullet width at the case mouth is .376.

With 40 years of experience, I would agree with you post completely.  This works for me with all bullet types.  And yes, just enough bell to prevent any scraping of the bullet as it is inserted. 

[CZ85Combat]

What did you find out about COL?

Edited September 1, 2016 by CZ85Combat

[pdxrealtor]

9 hours ago, CZ85Combat said:

What did you find out about COL?

Hey CZ85 - I talked to Dillon and the spec is +/- 1000th.  I'm getting mostly 1.088-1.092 or so with a lot of 'right on the money' 1.090s, and, some a bit farther off. 

Loaded up 900 the other night. From 5.1 which was my start load, to 5.7 which is .1 over the highest I've chorno'd. Loaded them in .1 grain increments. 

I want to see if the 5.1s will stay subsonic consistently in the handguns as well as my new CZ Scorpion. It would be nice to not have to have a setup for supers and subs in 9mm AND 300 BO. 

 

 

[CZ85Combat]

With slow burning powder( Silhouette) and the Scorpion's longer barrel you are going to see the fps go up.

[pdxrealtor]

6 hours ago, CZ85Combat said:

With slow burning powder( Silhouette) and the Scorpion's longer barrel you are going to see the fps go up.

That's the expectation, but I want to know how much. 

 

I got about 100 FPS from a 0.5 grain increase. I'm  at 1038 min / 1094 max on a 13 shot string without cycling issues and that was on a 85* day. I'll likely get a mixed bag of subs and crakers..... mmm I'm hungry. lol