2017 USPSA Multigun Nationals

[ryan45kim]

no one said it has to move every year but how many years has the MG nationals been in Vegas? I've shot the limited Nationals in 4 different states never noticed any of the issues stated with that match moving. 

[BigBets]

Is this really going to be on Easter weekend?

[SteveT-NV]

On 10/11/2016 at 0:47 PM, BigBets said:

Is this really going to be on Easter weekend?

Hate to complain, but having this on a Holiday weekend is a bummer for many of us. Family obligations are going to make this tough, may have to miss this one! 

[outerlimits]

sad, but true.  emailed mike today and this was his response.

"That was my first concern when the match director and the range master gave me the dates. When I questioned them they informed that they had done this before maybe four years ago, and attendance was great. Of all the members who verified most were not concerned with it.  I do understand.  The date is firm.
Mike"

[Religious Shooter]

What?!  It sounds like they had a choice.  I can understand if they didn't have a choice... as in the range was already booked on the other weekends.

But if they had a reasonable ability to have it on another weekend... pretty lame. 

 

[AKJD]

Easter is not a holiday for everyone.  If you looked a calendar with all the holidays for all religions and everything else there wouldn't be many weekends left for matches.  Never going to make everyone happy.

https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/2017

 

 

[Religious Shooter]

Well if they had a choice why not during the next weekend?

Apr 21	Friday	San Jacinto Day	State holiday	Texas
Apr 22	Saturday	Oklahoma Day	Local observance	Oklahoma

Over the weekend that they choose?

Apr 14	Friday	Orthodox Good Friday	Orthodox
Apr 14	Friday	Good Friday	State holiday	13 states
Apr 15	Saturday	Holy Saturday	Christian
Apr 15	Saturday	Orthodox Holy Saturday	Orthodox
Apr 15	Saturday	Father Damien Day	Local observance	Hawaii
Apr 16	Sunday	Orthodox Easter	Orthodox
Apr 16	Sunday	Easter Sunday	Observance, Christian
Apr 16	Sunday	Emancipation Day	State holiday	District of Columbia

[actionshooter]

Easter is an important holiday around our house and in 2017 I'll be celebrating by shooting a little 3gun in Vegas.

[ziebart]

From the match announcements calendar.  To me it looks like they were going to step on someone's toes no matter what.  It also the same weekend as last year.  Does not change the fact that it conflicts with a major religious holiday.  I still plan on attending as I am a heathen.

 

APR 8-9: 3GN Northern Regional -St. Paul, MN - Forest Lake Sportsman Club

APR 14-16: USPSA Multi-Gun National - Boulder City, NV

APR 21-23: Vortex Presents Shooters Source 3 Gun Championship, hosted by North Texas Multigun at Triple C Range, Cresson, TX

[Blaster]

When and where can sign up for this match Thanks

[fishsticks]

When and where can sign up for this match Thanks

https://practiscore.com/2017-multigun-nationals/register

Opens tomorrow.

[ziebart]

About 104 slots remain so get your applications in soon.  

[Chuck Anderson]

All full up.  I'm on the wait list. First time the USPSA MG Nats has filled that fast. Guess Easter didn't hurt attendance too bad. 

[ziebart]

I am sure Pete will find a way to get most everyone that wants into the match in.  With 305 people registered so far there are only 3 heavy metal limited shooters and 11 HMT.  USPSA rules require 10 people to recognize a division.  These numbers include those on the waitlist.  If you want to shoot heavy limited you need to convince 7 people to change divisions.

[RiggerJJ]

I really like shooting HeMan Iron (aka Heavy Limited), but I fail to understand why I am told on a regular basis by different matches that I want to attend as a shooter that I need to convince other shooters to enter HeMan Irons. I feel it is the responsibility of the match management to make the division appealing enough to entice more than 3 people into it... There is at least one match that more than fills it every year.

jmho

jj

 

[ziebart]

How do you suggest that USPSA entice shooters to shoot it?

 

ETA

The flip side to that is why should they if only three people want to shoot it? 

Edited November 4, 2016 by ziebart

[RiggerJJ]

Its not that hard, and I'm not going to go into it here. Suffice to say, if a match's management wants a division to flourish, it will.

jj

[ziebart]

Thank you for your insight.  I will pass the word along that all that is needed is to want the division to flourish.

 

I see 15 people who shot HeMan Nationals in Heavy Iron this year.  Which match, "more than fills it"?  I see 26 people shoot "O" I am guessing the "wee man" division in the same match. 

[Benelli Chick]

Well that's kind of apples to oranges. He-Man is about 1/3 the size of your match...maybe less with staff.

At RM3G 2016(a more even comparison), we had 14 He-Man Iron (Enough for a division even with USPSA rules), 46 He-Man Scope and 51 Open and only 30 Limited Iron. He-Men together had more than open...and this is pretty much the norm for us in the last few years. Limited Scope "Tac-Scope" had 126 which is less than the other 4 divisions combined which we don't see at many other matches. Usually, Tac-Scope is more like 2/3 of the shooters.

My personal feeling is that we have more people shooting other divisions because of the way we do our prize table, but that's just my opinion.

Remember, our He-Man Scope is still a .308, .45 and a PUMP shotgun. So it is a much more challenging division than your Tac-Heavy...and I can say this, because I am shooting Tac-Heavy at USPSA Nationals...and I can't shoot He-Man...just not tough enough. 

Also, the fact that we had 44 shooting irons/1X at a match known for long distance rifle I think is pretty cool! It's hard to see 400 yard targets without magnification, and shooting irons(or 1X I suppose) is not an easy thing.

I think JJ is just frustrated. A few years ago, he worked with Phil to get more He-Men Iron. USPSA acknowledged the division even though it was a little low one year. Things were starting to turn around, but then, it went the other way again.

I do commend you for letting us know so early. That is a big improvement. Back when Nationals was in Louisiana, one of the He-Men (not JJ, he wasn't shooting He-Man yet) was told Heavy Limited was good to go. Then a couple people backed out, and he was told AFTER completed his last stage, that there now weren't enough and he would be in Tac-Scope. (He had brought Tac-Scope equipment with him, but no one bothered to tell him there weren't enough until the last minute.) Even last year, you only gave us 2 weeks notice.

It just seems that sometimes matches would just prefer it if everyone shot Tac-Scope and nothing else. I think sponsors...especially ones that make things other than .223's, or whatever, enjoy having people buy more guns! JJ, and a few other ENJOY shooting the big guns. It's a different challenge and they like it. I like shooting the .308 sometimes. It's different and can be fun! It makes me laugh when I leave a yard sale of pistol mags because I am not used to shooting limited 10.

If more people in divisions other than Tac-Scope were a priority, you would make it happen. I understand that at this point, if JJ wants to shoot Heavy Iron he needs to find friends to play...but the prize table is usually not great...and no one wants to take the risk of having it eliminated if people drop out at the last minute. They have to bring two sets of guns, twice the ammo and practice with both sets of guns as well..

Anyway, my 2 cents. Still signed up to come shoot even knowing...so looking forward to having some fun!

Denise

 

 

 

[ziebart]

Thank you for your post.  I see your viewpoint, and how you have framed it.  I did not know which match JJ was talking about, so I had to assume it was the He-Man nats.  While it is a much smaller match at only 7 stages my point was there are only 3 divisions.  One of those is not supposed to be shot by anyone other than spouses and ROs.  That division had more participation than He-Man Iron.  It would seem that that match had done everything it can to encourage He-Man participation and still many chose not to.  

 

RM3G had a total of 267 registrations.  That means that a little over 5% of the field chose to shoot He-Man Irons.  USPSA had just over 1% register for it.  The difference could be due to the prize table, the rules for the divisions, that RM3G is the home of heavy, or the single prize table.  I don't know that the prize table is the sole factor though, as Northwest MG had a single prize table 2-3 years ago and they still did not have enough heavy shooters to recognize the division.  I know some people like to division shop to get the best thing off the table so if they know that the heavy table is empty they won't go there.  Surefire WMG had $4,000 on the heavy table for the 5 people that shot it, and some people still complained.

If a match could get a sponsor to donate directly to the heavy prize table and the match advertised as such then maybe they would get more participation.  Another way to get more participation in the heavy division would be to set all the poppers so that it took a major PF round to knock them over.  Sure 9mm may get it done, but it would take several hits.  People may get frustrated and shoot the guns that get it done in one round.

Still, why should a match try to cater to the 1%?  I get that sponsors may like it, but I have never had to beg sponsors to support a match, and hope to never have that job.  It sounds absolutely miserable.  I appreciate everything sponsors do for us, but I hate asking for things.  I may try to put a bug in an ear just to see if this is something they want.

Nothing is stopping anyone from shooting the big guns.  JJ can still shoot his irons in heavy scope division.  If we do this for fun then the prize table does not matter.  If a person is in it to win they like to beat other people, so they shoot the bigger divisions.  When someone asks after a win, "how many people were there?" it does not matter if you beat the 4 best heavy shooters in the world you still only beat 4 people.  If you win tac optics then you beat 100+ people at almost every match.  For outsiders the number is more important.

Personally I feel the biggest problem with the heavy divisions is all the different matches have their own ideas of what it means.  They are different enough that you need multiple guns and mags to be able to conform to the rules.  That, and it is sort of like revolver in USPSA.  Most people just want to go fast.  Heavy is harder and slower than tac optics.  People don't go to open because it is too expensive so they stay in tac optics.  It is the same reason more people don't shoot limited, it is hard.  Look at the people starting out at local matches where there is no prize table and they don't know what they are "supposed to shoot".  I would wager that most shoot tac optics gear, or will within the first match or two.

I think the issue last year was people were trying to convince USPSA to allow the division even though it did not have enough participation per the rules.  Since we know that the rules are the rules I made a decision to post it here.  I am not on the inner circle, but I try to do my best to update Enos and the webpage.

[Benelli Chick]

Thank-you!

I know what you mean...and you are right, begging people sucks!! I LOVE my sponsors, but I hate asking for stuff as well. It's the worst part of the match for me. I understand that we need to have a prize table...well sort of. We have tried a bigger match without prizes, and while we had some of the best people on the planet come shoot, we didn't get hardly and "big dogs" because it's not "worth it."

If I didn't have to worry about a prize table, my work would be cut in half or maybe more...

As far as only beating 4 people...I don't know...I know it's good not to be last, but when Mike Payne first beat Kuan Watson in heavy...he didn't care how many people were in the division...he just wanted to beat the amazing Kuan!

I wish all our shooters were just there for the fun, but they aren't...they do division shop for prize table etc. So...no answer really.

Oh well. We'll see you in April!

Denise

Oh yeah, and we were at a match last year that had a Heavy Sponsor listed, but none of their stuff was on the Heavy table...so...

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Benelli Chick

[bluedevil008]

What benefit is it to the match staff to put effort into making a very small division "enticing"?  Sure, it helps those 5 people that really want to shoot it, but it doesn't affect how the match fills up, sponsorships (most likely), etc. 

So, I see no reason why the match staff should put any effort into trying to recruit more of one particular division. 

[ziebart]

Denise,

My comment about 4 people vs 100 is for the outside observer.  For the match participants that know each other they have their own goals and targets.  For those people they really only need that one other competitor to make the match worth it.  If we just cared about shooting for fun we would not take the time to score the targets.  This is a competition and part of the fun is the added pressure.  I think it is similar to betting on sports for some people.  They feel the games are better when they have money on the line.  I want to add this aspect to our sport somehow.  Maybe add side bets during the shootoff so someone can guess the top time?

That is disappointing to hear about the Heavy sponsor match.  If I had put money or product down for a specific line item I would want it going there.

[Chuck Anderson]

Mark, sometimes sponsors care about which table their product goes to, other times they just pick the sponsorship that is available.  If a match offers 5 Division Sponsorships, Tact, Lim, Open, Heavy Iron and Heavy Scope, and the first 4 are gone, you might see a company that makes scope mounts signing up to be the Heavy Iron sponsor.  Doesn't mean they want their gear to go all on that table, but that's all that was left.  Additionally if a company donates 10K in product for a match, they may or may not want all of that going to 3 guys shooting a tiny division.  It's a decision that should be made between match staff and the sponsor.  It should be clear what the expectations of both are.  Sometimes you may see a sponsor that wants to flood a table and drive interest in that division.  If JP decided they wanted to make a splash at the MG Nats by offering a JP LRP-07 to the top three shooters in Heavy Limited this year, I'm betting you'd see some heavy hitters swapping to that division to try and clean up.  But does that really offer any benefit to JP or the MG Nats to artificially stimulate interest in a division that has very few people who really want to shoot it?  

[Jadeslade]

Chuck nailed his own opinion. A lot of shooters want this to move on from Las Vegas. It is not the "match directors" job to put on a proposal and "present it to the board". That is Mike Foley's job. No one said " tear it down".  Just move it somewhere else. Most 3 gun matches are west of the Mississippi. Which is the difference between flying and driving for people on the East Coast.  The match fee this year is 350.00. That is the highest fee of any three gun match. Higher than FN. So, for that money, shooters shouldn't have to reset., and there should be a dinner.  Unless sponsors aren't willing to come in on the USPSA event.