.40 production

[Onepocket]

Why don't more people shoot .40 in production?

[maleman000]

Cost I think is main factor.

[jakemaul]

3 main reasons:

1) Production scoring is always done at minor power factor, so there's no need for anything bigger than 9mm for scoring purposes.

2) 9mm is the cheapest caliber that qualifies for minor PF in production.

3) Lower recoil usually means faster follow-up shots, so most folks want the gentlest load they can shoot and still get the job done. 115gr is usually considered "too light" though (won't reliably knock down steel poppers), so most opt for 124gr or 147gr.

For Limited, .40S&W is preferred... mainly because it's the smallest caliber that meets *major* power factor, and thus has a scoring advantage over 9mm.

For Open, most common is .38 Super, or an over-loaded 9mm (colloquially known as "9mm Major"). This is because .38/9mm is the smallest caliber that makes major PF in Open. .40S&W would work here too, but since it's bigger in diameter you get fewer rounds per magazine.

[Kraj]

40 minor is stupid soft and works just fine

[Onepocket]

A 140 grain bullet in 9 and 40 are the same price. You cannot get a much softer load than a .40 loaded in minor.

[Onepocket]

I was working up a .40 pro am load with 140gr Bayou. It is the softest round I have ever fired in any Centerfired gun.

[aandabooks]

I'm picking up a G35 and plan to use it both as a backup gun for my son's G34 and my XDm in Production. It will also serve as a backup to my 2011 in Limited.

I'm going to look at building some .40 minor loads using 200gr bullets moving at no more than 675 FPS. I figure if a 147gr making minor is considered soft shooting then a 200gr making the same PF is going to feel even softer with the same weight gun to shoot it out of.

jakemaul, technically .357sig is the smallest caliber to make major in Limited. The debate there would be velocity over bullet weights. .357sig is cheaper to load than .40 though.

[motosapiens]

i shoot 40 minor when I shoot production, with a 180gr bullet. it's a soft and very accurate load, and it is noticeably quieter than 9mm loads. I think the main reason so many folks shoot 9mm is that cz shadows all come in 9mm, and not 40.

Another reason is that most really good shooters seem to prefer a snappier quicker-feeling gun rather than the slower roll of a super soft recoiling gun. If i were starting from scratch, I would get a 9mm, but since I already had a 40 when I started in USPSA, I just worked with that.

Edited August 8, 2016 by motosapiens

[EngineerEli]

I went through the same consideration when I re-entered the production world. Already shooting limited and loading 40, it seemed like a simple alternative. In the end of the day I did end up going 9mm for my production gun.

40 will take more powder with a larger case to achieve the same PF with the same weight bullet. Other side of that coin is you can safely use even faster powders than you can in 9mm because of increased case volume. Also I have read that because the bore is a larger diameter, it has a larger total volume, requiring more powder/gas to accomplish the same bullet velocity as compared to a 9mm bore. Bigger holes are often nice depending on the situation, which is a plus for .40. 9mm cases for me at least are more readily available. I never spend money on brass, so it is nice to be able to collect what I can, and shoot some production in 9mm and save my .40 cases for limited.

[zzt]

I don't shoot Production for no other reason than I don't own a gun that is Production Legal. I shoot Limited and Open, both with 40sw. Why, IMO it is the most flexible caliber there is between 9mm and 45ACP, and imposes the fewest compromises.

My Minor 40 load uses 2.8gr e3 powder under a 180gr lead TC bullet for 139PF. It is stupid soft, and no 9mm load that actually makes Minor can touch it for softness. And steel hit with that slow moving 180gr bullet goes down much faster than any 9mm 147gr load. That is very important when the steel activates a disappearing target, etc. If you want faster slide action, go to 3.3gr e3 and a 165gr bullet. Geez! You can go down to 155, 140 and 135gr if you want faster cycling.

I can make Major in 40sw easily, so I can shoot Limited. I can make Major for Open much more easily than those shooting 38SC or 9mm. I don't have to use boatloads of really slow powders, worry about going over SAAMI pressures, or have to put up with the incredible loudness or concussion. I can make Major and still get a flat, soft shooting load using Autocomp or HS-6.

Cost issues: it costs the same to reload 40 as 9mm. You pay a touch more for the bullets, but save money on powder.

Capacity issues: there are none in Production and Limited. You are limited to 10 rounds in Production. Limited is a 40sw game, so the only capacity issue is does your tube, spring, follower, basepad combo allow you to hold 20 or 21 reloadable. Open is a different story. I give up 3 rounds of capacity for both 140 and 170mm sticks. I'm fine with that, because of the flexibility 40 gives me. Besides, I have yet to shoot a COF that did not allow me to change mags without costing time.

So my take is this. If you are not reloading, 9mm ammo is cheaper to buy and doesn't have the recoil of factory 40sw. If you are reloading, I'd seriously consider 40sw in lieu of 9mm. It has many advantages.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Cost and power factor for non reloaders.

[GrumpyOne]

40 minor is stupid soft and works just fine

Yes, it does...I shot PD with a 40 for 2 years and it was nice...except for the price...

[GrumpyOne]

A 140 grain bullet in 9 and 40 are the same price. You cannot get a much softer load than a .40 loaded in minor.

A 180 is much softer...but it is not the same price...

[Onepocket]

That's a given.

[Dr Mitch]

Price. 124gr 9mm is cheap and renown for its accuracy. Less $$$ = more shooting. More shooting is always the way to go.

.40 minor: You know who you never hear talking about soft loads and gamer loads? People who win Area matches and Nationals.

[36873687]

U can do it if ya reload same as shooting 9.

[motosapiens]

40 minor is stupid soft and works just fine

Yes, it does...I shot PD with a 40 for 2 years and it was nice...except for the price...

I guess I must be rich, because the 1.5 cents per bullet or thereabouts is not really enough to move the needle on my expense radar. It costs me much more than that just to drive to the range by myself instead of carpooling.

[bjburton]

40 will take more powder with a larger case to achieve the same PF with the same weight bullet. Other side of that coin is you can safely use even faster powders than you can in 9mm because of increased case volume. Also I have read that because the bore is a larger diameter, it has a larger total volume, requiring more powder/gas to accomplish the same bullet velocity as compared to a 9mm bore. Bigger holes are often nice depending on the situation, which is a plus for .40. 9mm cases for me at least are more readily available. I never spend money on brass, so it is nice to be able to collect what I can, and shoot some production in 9mm and save my .40 cases for limited.

All of this is dependent on the powder used. I'm running 40 Single Stack Minor and with a 180grn bullet at 730fps it is quite soft with no issues. With N310 I'm only using 2.8grn powder on a coated bullet. Cost is about $12-$13 per 100 rounds.

[bulm540]

I too shoot 40 minor. Makes buying components much easier since I also shoot limited plus I have about  Gazillion 40 brass. I am using BBI 165s and it is soft and extremely accurate with my stock 2.  If i was starting I'd definitely get a 9. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by bulm540

[woodrow]

On 8/8/2016 at 10:17 AM, zzt said:

My Minor 40 load uses 2.8gr e3 powder under a 180gr lead TC bullet for 139PF. It is stupid soft, and no 9mm load that actually makes Minor can touch it for softness. And steel hit with that slow moving 180gr bullet goes down much faster than any 9mm 147gr load. That is very important when the steel activates a disappearing target, etc. If you want faster slide action, go to 3.3gr e3 and a 165gr bullet. Geez! You can go down to 155, 140 and 135gr if you want faster cycling.I don't shoot Production for no other reason than I don't own a gun that is Production Legal. I shoot Limited and Open, both with 40sw. Why, IMO it is the most flexible caliber there is between 9mm and 45ACP, and imposes the fewest compromises.

 

Can you please clarify this? It made me scratch my head thinking about it. What you are saying is that a 180gr projo will knock down steel faster than a 147gr projo at the same power factor? You're saying that 180gr @ 135pf is not the same as 147gr @ 135pf?

Not being sarcastic, I am curious. I've always wondered if there's more behind power factor than what the formula tells us.

Edited October 17, 2016 by woodrow
removing confusion

[zzt]

woodrow, it has nothing to do with power factor and everything to do with momentum and transfer of energy.  The ft/lbs of energy (muzzle energy) quoted by every manufacturer for their rounds tells you nothing about what some people call "knock down" power.

Bigger and slower transfers more energy and knocks stuff down faster.

People always come up to me at a pin match and ask what the heck I'm using when I shoot 45.  They say the pins (or steel) go down like they were pole axed.  I use a 200gr RNFP bullet with a wide meplap.  It is loaded to around 156-160PF.  My 40sw is loaded with 180gr bullets to 172PF and it does not send pins flying or steel falling as well as my "softer" 45 load.  When I was using a factory 9mm 147gr @ 144PF, I'd double tap the top of the popper to get it to fall quicker. Otherwise, relatively speaking, it was slo mo.

[woodrow]

That's very interesting, thank you for the reply. 

I've been digging around and found the Taylor Knock Out Factor. I searched it on here and while there were some interesting arguments about it, it seems like it's the correct formula for quantifying the momentum or knock down factor when comparing different calibers with the same power factor.

I plugged in some numbers comparing the calibers of 147gr @ 135pf and 180gr @ 135pf; and then 180gr @ 165pf and the 200gr @ 165pf at their respective velocities and it did demonstrate what you are saying with heavier and slower has more momentum than lighter and faster relative to a given power factor. 

Love it when I learn something new. Thank you again for reply. This information will come in handy.

...and I wish there were pin matches where I'm at. Something I've always wanted to do but no one puts on a match.

 

[ATLDave]

Uh, power factor IS a momentum calculation.  Pure and simple.  If two projectiles have the same power factor, they have the SAME momentum.

They may or may not have the same dwell time on the target, though.  

[Slow250]

3-5 boxes of 9mm is lighter than 3-5 boxes of .40 in the range bag. 

[johnbu]

On 10/18/2016 at 9:58 AM, ATLDave said:

Uh, power factor IS a momentum calculation.  Pure and simple.  If two projectiles have the same power factor, they have the SAME momentum.

They may or may not have the same dwell time on the target, though.  

We must have taken the same physics class.  The energy to knock down the plate is obviously transferred differently. I'm guessing the lower velocity spends less energy splattering lead . But that's above my pay grade.