Will Freedom Munitions Never Learn?

[kevin c]

I have. As best I can tell, it shoots the same, velocity wise.

I have heard a lot of folks being critical of the internally stepped brass. I found one stepped case on my range that came apart and have a friend who had a separation with the brass with a Production load, but I wanted to see myself. So here's my version of a test.

I started with 500 IMT cases, all once fired from discards from folks I know at my range that buy factory but don't bother to reload (I wish I had that kind of money...). These got loaded with either my match or current practice load, which is a 147 grain polymer coated 9mm over either N320 or CSB-1. Both loads chrono 132 to 134 PF through my G34's. The loads were segregated for practice drills that were basically stand and shoot, so recovering the brass was fairly easy. Standard dry tumbling to clean. All cases get Case Pro'd each time. Silicone spray used as lube for sizing, with the cases wiped down to remove most of the residue after loading, but still slick to touch. All cases marked for identification.

I've been doing this over a few months now and am down to about 350 cases. I am currently shooting the 16th reloading (17 total firings when done). I have had zero case head separations. I have lost a few cases to case mouth splits (I flare rather generously as the bevel bases bullets I use tend to tilt easily), but that's it.

I might continue the test, out of either a dogged sense of duty or a morbid curiosity, but, at least for me, I am not going to worry much about the separation issue when shooting my Production loads through my guns.

ETA: As far as the brass plated steel cases, I gave up on the S&B because they simply wouldn't prime well for me. If the new FM steel cases size and prime OK, I probably will use them. BTW, are there any distinguishing markings on the steel vs all brass cases, or is magnet sorting the only way of finding these in recovered brass?

Edited August 3, 2016 by kevin c

[v1911]

Seeing as I have far too much time on my hands, I've loaded up some test batches to chrony tomorrow. 10 rounds of FM brass vs 10 rounds of WIN brass. I'll post my results afterwards.

I really need to save all this load development for the cooler months......

Edit: Car troubles prevented me from making it to the range. Will have to postpone the shootout.

Edited August 4, 2016 by v1911

[rustybayonet]

S&B is another brass washed steel offender. Not all of them, but enough to make you want to run a magnet over them.

I haven't found any S&B Steel yet, is this newer rounds?

[Sarge]

S&B is another brass washed steel offender. Not all of them, but enough to make you want to run a magnet over them.

I haven't found any S&B Steel yet, is this newer rounds?

No, older. They stopped making it I believe because I haven't seen much in the last 2-3 years

[e4effort]

I've loaded FM and Ammoland stuff and never really had a problem. I do however sort all of my brass and I keep all of my stepped cases in one pile while my normal/non nato brass in another. These were all loaded at minor PF. However, I know that major shooters have split tons of stepped cases and avoid them like the plague now.

[ironpony]

Steel case haters? Thread title read "Freedom Munitions".

I see it as re-introducing a variable that not many newer reloaders will even catch. Unless the brass washed cases are 100% the same as what we all know a 9 mm case to be, they will be inconsistent with the normal brass case. Is consistency important in competition/ science/ reloading ?

On the other hand I would probably use the cases and shoot them somewhere I'm not going to pick up brass

[redial]

Excellent article, sir!

Thanks

[teros135]

I started loading the stepped cases because no one wanted them. I have not had any issues (I am loading minor not major). Not even a split case. I have been rotating through a batch of several thousand and am on my third or fourth pass. Before I started the big batch I had a test sample of 25 or so that I ran 10 loadings on with zero failures.

Yep, that works for minor. Buy major is another story. Before I learned about the stepped case problem I had a couple of separations in practice, right at the level of the step. Friends have had the same problem. None of us use them.

Regarding steel, not going to jump on the steel case bandwagon any time soon, especially from FM, who's had other problems. And the article mentioned above doesn't seem to be all that unbiased, considering there's large advertising banner right at the top of the page that clicks through to Freedom Munitions.

Edited August 4, 2016 by teros135

[P.E. Kelley]

The article (most any article) is only as Un-biased as the author.

I wrote it and tried to show (pretty sure I had photos and links to videos as well with in it) physically how the steel cases behave.

FM has said no to reloading as does CCI and their aluminum cases.

YES! I am sponsored by Freedom, but I have no obligation to hold back on my findings. If they did...I'd cut ties ASAP.

If you watch my Out of Box videos...you would notice that FM ammo is NOT always the most accurate of the brands

tested. FM has not said Boo to me about that.

I call it like I see it and try to show how I came to any conclusion drawn.

If you still want to believe I am biased enough to lie...you are wrong.

"you" is generic referring to anyone who feels the above applies to them.

[Sarge]

I started loading the stepped cases because no one wanted them. I have not had any issues (I am loading minor not major). Not even a split case. I have been rotating through a batch of several thousand and am on my third or fourth pass. Before I started the big batch I had a test sample of 25 or so that I ran 10 loadings on with zero failures.

Yep, that works for minor. Buy major is another story. Before I learned about the stepped case problem I had a couple of separations in practice, right at the level of the step. Friends have had the same problem. None of us use them.

Regarding steel, not going to jump on the steel case bandwagon any time soon, especially from FM, who's had other problems. And the article mentioned above doesn't seem to be all that unbiased, considering there's large advertising banner right at the top of the page that clicks through to Freedom Munitions.

HA! I didn't even notice the banner. good find!!

[teros135]

The article (most any article) is only as Un-biased as the author.

I wrote it and tried to show (pretty sure I had photos and links to videos as well with in it) physically how the steel cases behave.

FM has said no to reloading as does CCI and their aluminum cases.

YES! I am sponsored by Freedom, but I have no obligation to hold back on my findings. If they did...I'd cut ties ASAP.

If you watch my Out of Box videos...you would notice that FM ammo is NOT always the most accurate of the brands

tested. FM has not said Boo to me about that.

I call it like I see it and try to show how I came to any conclusion drawn.

If you still want to believe I am biased enough to lie...you are wrong.

"you" is generic referring to anyone who feels the above applies to them.

This wasn't a personal attack at all, and not even a hint that the author would deliberately "lie". But bias shows its head in many ways, often unconsciously, and one of the ways to counter it is to openly reveal the affiliations.

It's not enough to say "I'm not trying to please my sponsor" here on BE; the affiliation needs to be clearly stated in the articles (both of them). Then the readers can weigh that info in as well and decide how to proceed. I first thought this was an article was a personal project by a nonaffiliated shooting enthusiast (haven't read the column before), and I'll bet a lot of readers come to the same conclusion, without a disclaimer (which would be a fair thing to have in the article).

Regarding the testing, there is much that could be said, but Pat put time in on this and comments can wait. What I'd like to know, as a regular competitor and owner of several nice guns with top components, is how this stuff treats the gun over time and through lots of rounds. When somebody shoots say 5000-10,000 rounds through a quality 1911-style gun, what does the gun look like, from a metallurgical standpoint? Feed ramp, chamber, extractor, ejector, breech face (especially the side opposite the extractor) take a pounding during fast cycling (.06-.10 second). As noted, steel is less malleable (i.e., harder) than brass, and the cases pound against the steel parts of the gun. Maybe that's why they've usually used brass for ammo.

I'd also like to know what happens when these plated steel cases wear. Not wear as in a relatively few rounds fired in a test, but wear as in reload and fire a significant number of cases 5 or 8 times each, perhaps as part of the 5-10k test mentioned above.

The same testing would apply to the loading equipment, for the same reasons. That equipment is valuable and needs to be treated in a manner that won't prematurely wear it.

Maybe they're wonderful after all. But until the long-term test results come in, from reliable sources (perhaps an independent test lab or our own BE members), I'm not willing to trust my guns to this particular type of ammo. Magnet it is.

[P.E. Kelley]

The article (most any article) is only as Un-biased as the author.

I wrote it and tried to show (pretty sure I had photos and links to videos as well with in it) physically how the steel cases behave.

FM has said no to reloading as does CCI and their aluminum cases.

YES! I am sponsored by Freedom, but I have no obligation to hold back on my findings. If they did...I'd cut ties ASAP.

If you watch my Out of Box videos...you would notice that FM ammo is NOT always the most accurate of the brands

tested. FM has not said Boo to me about that.

I call it like I see it and try to show how I came to any conclusion drawn.

If you still want to believe I am biased enough to lie...you are wrong.

"you" is generic referring to anyone who feels the above applies to them.

This wasn't a personal attack at all, and not even a hint that the author would deliberately "lie". But bias shows its head in many ways, often unconsciously, and one of the ways to counter it is to openly reveal the affiliations.

It's not enough to say "I'm not trying to please my sponsor" here on BE; the affiliation needs to be clearly stated in the articles (both of them). Then the readers can weigh that info in as well and decide how to proceed. I first thought this was an article was a personal project by a nonaffiliated shooting enthusiast (haven't read the column before), and I'll bet a lot of readers come to the same conclusion, without a disclaimer (which would be a fair thing to have in the article).

Regarding the testing, there is much that could be said, but Pat put time in on this and comments can wait. What I'd like to know, as a regular competitor and owner of several nice guns with top components, is how this stuff treats the gun over time and through lots of rounds. When somebody shoots say 5000-10,000 rounds through a quality 1911-style gun, what does the gun look like, from a metallurgical standpoint? Feed ramp, chamber, extractor, ejector, breech face (especially the side opposite the extractor) take a pounding during fast cycling (.06-.10 second). As noted, steel is less malleable (i.e., harder) than brass, and the cases pound against the steel parts of the gun. Maybe that's why they've usually used brass for ammo.

I'd also like to know what happens when these plated steel cases wear. Not wear as in a relatively few rounds fired in a test, but wear as in reload and fire a significant number of cases 5 or 8 times each, perhaps as part of the 5-10k test mentioned above.

The same testing would apply to the loading equipment, for the same reasons. That equipment is valuable and needs to be treated in a manner that won't prematurely wear it.

Maybe they're wonderful after all. But until the long-term test results come in, from reliable sources (perhaps an independent test lab or our own BE members), I'm not willing to trust my guns to this particular type of ammo. Magnet it is.

I am sorry "lie" was too strong a word. I have a reputation of honesty and got wound up thinking it was being diminished.

So you all know...Ammo Guru IS owned and operated by Freedom Munitions. Articles are submitted by FM assisted shooters.

Most of the dozens of articles I have written for Front Sight, Shooting Illustrated, Shooting USA, 3-Gun Nation have been about equipment, tips and techniques.

What affiliations should be proffered up for those articles? How about the hundreds of article written and read by millions of enthusiasts who's authors are not here

on BE giving members full access to cross examine?

Publications live by advertising dollars and some must "fiddle for their supper". I know first hand as I have turned down good paying work

because I returned a particular gun was not up to standards and yet another gun writer picked up the task and the cash. That companies ad dollars continued.

Back to the cases....I would love to see (hell I would love to have the time) to do exactly what you said. An accelerated "long term" study of the effects

on these steel cases on our gear.

No matter ones take on FM brass washed steel cases, I only and honesty tried to provide some first hand info with testing methods to my fellow shooting friends.

[v1911]

As promised...

9mm FM vs WIN brass shootout

Bullet: 115gr JHP

Powder: BE-86 - 5.5gr

Primer: S&B

Brass: 10 FM - 10 WIN

OAL: 1.085

Barrel: 4.5" XDm

Results:

FM

Avg 1219fps - SD 8.5 - ES 23

WIN

Avg 1221fps - SD 23.8 - ES 81

Both of these test loads were loaded to about 140pf and neither showed any ill effects. The only thing to note was that you could see a feint ring on the outside of the FM brass where the step would be internally. But my test results showed that the FM loads were more consistent than those loaded in WIN brass. While I don't know for certain how other brands of stepped brass would perform, I have no reservations using FM brass with 115gr loads. Would 147gr bullets make a difference? I don't know.

I'd like to thank Patrick for piquing my interest on this matter and MemphisMechanic for giving me a recipe that simulated another load I was developing and that I used for this test.

Edited August 10, 2016 by v1911

[jtielke]

I asked someone from Freedom Munitions what was up with the stepped brass and they said it should be a temporary thing. They got a good deal on some tooling and are using it for the time being to make brass. Now that they are making a large volume of brass they are planning to purchase more machines with new tooling that will make brass the way we are used to seeing it.

[Hi-Power Jack]

9mm FM vs WIN brass shootout

FM

Avg 1219fps - SD 8.5 - ES 23

WIN

Avg 1221fps - SD 23.8 - ES 81

How large a sample did you use?

[v1911]

10 shots each.

[olstyn]

How large a sample did you use?

Looks like he said 10 of each:

Brass: 10 FM - 10 WIN

[Hi-Power Jack]

Be interesting to fire a larger sample size - I usually fire 20 rounds over the chrono

to get an average velocity - that could change your numbers a bit ...

[JohnnyD]

I ran into these the first time on Saturday at a public range. I went to throw something away in the trash and saw one of their boxes...joy.

When I got home I dumped my large brass haul out in a shoe box lid. Ran a heavy magnet over the top and they jumped right onto the magnet...off to the garbage can they went.

[teros135]

On 8/12/2016 at 4:47 PM, JohnnyD said:

I ran into these the first time on Saturday at a public range. I went to throw something away in the trash and saw one of their boxes...joy.

When I got home I dumped my large brass haul out in a shoe box lid. Ran a heavy magnet over the top and they jumped right onto the magnet...off to the garbage can they went.

We're starting to run into them also.  Away they go!

[njl]

I saw a couple of boxes from American Steel this weekend in the trash at the outdoor range where I shoot.   More junk brass to watch out for.

[gerritm]

Bringing this one back to life. Had 2 stepped cases split this weekend right at the step. Top piece stayed in the chamber, bottom got ejected. Not sure if they were Freedom or Ammoland. They were not magnetic. Checked my headstamps and had a couple of each. Thought I was catching them, but slipped by. Went thru all my headstamps again to make sure none are in my batches. I am running open major. Not sure of any issues running minor, but they sure ruined my day.

 

gerritm

[mont1120]

This subject is very intriguing to me, and I rarely shoot 9MM at all.I think the steel with brass plate would be fine to shoot, and even stepped brass would be OK unless a heavy bullet is preferred.

 

What I wonder is how many pieces of 9MM brass rounds that fail are due to the high stress factors of 9 major. Since I always load to a minor PF, (around 130) I have never worried much about it, but has any data been provided to ascertain the effects of the high pressure major loads on this type of bras?  Does stepped brass cause issues with the major loads? I ask since I am never know when I might stumble on the deal of the century Open gun, and want to know all I can about 9MM loads.

[jhgtyre]

4 hours ago, mont1120 said:

This subject is very intriguing to me, and I rarely shoot 9MM at all.I think the steel with brass plate would be fine to shoot, and even stepped brass would be OK unless a heavy bullet is preferred.

 

What I wonder is how many pieces of 9MM brass rounds that fail are due to the high stress factors of 9 major. Since I always load to a minor PF, (around 130) I have never worried much about it, but has any data been provided to ascertain the effects of the high pressure major loads on this type of bras?  Does stepped brass cause issues with the major loads? I ask since I am never know when I might stumble on the deal of the century Open gun, and want to know all I can about 9MM loads.

The stepped case is going to have reduced case volume so you won't know how much powder to put in.  Assuming you just put in the same amount, which can create unsafe conditions, you might have insufficient room for the amount of powder you are using.

 

[v1911]

I may have to put my .223 reloading on hold and put the 9mm back into play. I normally run Clay Dot under 147gr bayou. Fluffy powder and a deep bullet would answer that question.

 

I've been shooting my 147gr with Clay Dot with mixed brass including stepped and have not had a hand grenade go off yet. But I'd be interested to see if there are any velocity changes.