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Difference in technique shooting long range 308 vs 223?


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I can shoot my ar-15 just fine ringing long range steel, shooting sub1 moa groups on paper. I can not seem to replicate the accuracy with my 308. I am getting really frustrated with it. I try to shoot it with the same technique I use with my 223, same grip on the pistol grip. Pin the trigger. Same tightness in the shoulder pocket, etc..... but the groups are horrible. I can ring steel ok in a match with it, but not like my 223. Takes more shots.

I know the recoil is much greater than my 223 and I am not a heavy weight, I stand 5'8" and weigh about 125 pounds so the gun pushes me around more, but I know there are plenty of slight women who can shoot a 308 like nobodys business so I must be doing something wrong. So I was wondering if anyone uses less/more/different technique?

And for that matter, what is the "proper" way to shoot an AR style rifle? Bear down on the gun? Tight grip on the pistol grip? Tight in the shoulder? Or just barely holding on to it? Loose grip on pistol grip? Loose in the shoulder. Barely resting cheek on stock?

I would sincerely appreciate any help that anyone can give me because I am about to throw the stupid rifle in the trash and give up on heavy.

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What kind of rifle is your .308? You can "get away" with many imperfections in your form when shooting a .223 that will show themselves when shooting a .308. But if you learn to shoot a .308 your .223 shooting will be better as well.

But telling you the specifics over the internet will be difficult at best. Personal coaching is the best option - but to start with, what do you know about Natural Point of Aim (NPA), and proper follow-through?

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Meh, if you can shoot an AR-15 sub MOA, you can shoot an AR-10! I would look to what you are feeding it and how it is built. Have Don shoot a group with it and see if in this case it isn't the arrow!

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find out if it's the gun and/or load first (not an easy or simple process)

like above post have someone better shoot it

then i'd think about fixing shooter issues.

but if your technique is ok on .223 most of those skills should transfer to .308..... leading me to believe it may not be shooter issues...

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I am shooting a dpms oracle with a few changes made like hand guard and a silent capture spring, Mike paynes muzzle brake, and a JP trigger. After not getting the accuracy I wanted out of the stock barrel we put a JP barrel on it which I came off my brother in laws rifle. He couldn't seem to get it to shoot on his gun so I tried it on mine. Still couldn't get it to shoot. Heard there was a bad run of them so we sent it back to JP months ago and still haven't heard anything from JP on it. It currently has a 20" criterion on it which is shooting better than the JP but not by much. Some of our ammo has bad brass and is leaking around the primers, so my bolt is pretty much now junk. (We have probably another 500-800 rounds of it sitting in the garage waiting to be thrown away). But from what I have been told, it is the barrel that makes the gun accurate, and I thought I made a good choice in my new barrel. I have shot the zq1 through it and that didn't go well, I also shot the perfecta through it and that was just a little better than the zq1. Don shot it with either its original barrel or with the JP (can't remember which) and couldn't get it to shoot too much better than me, but he hasn't shot it with the criterion. He keeps telling me it isn't me, but I am getting to the point where I am thinking after three barrels, I can either continue to blame equipment or I can start to blame myself. Haven't messed too much with loads other than using recipes that other people recommended. Specifically Don's load that he got from JP (110 grain Hornady a-max and I can't remember powder/charge) and another load using some 155's (again can't remember the load off hand). So maybe trying some other bullets will help? I got some prepped 308 brass from Atlanta Arms from a prize certificate, so that should resolve the crappy brass issue. Again, at some point, I have to own up and say, guess what, it is not the equipment, it is me, because no matter what we do to the rifle, I still can't seem to shoot a decent group out of it. I have heard people say that ar-10's are much more difficult to shoot well than ar-15's and I believe it. So I was hoping to learn more about technique to see what I am doing wrong.

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Are you mounting / installing Barrel yourself?

What kind of MOA? Are you getting? How many shot group? How fast are you shooting?

Does your cold bore zero differ than warm bore zero?

Is first shot better than following shots?

Have you tried testing @ 200 yards?

What powder/pill combo are you using? What is current load data?

Have you chrono'd ?

Prone or from bench?

Have you shot any .308 bolt or semi with any accuracy?

Have you shot it on a sled?

What twist rate? How many shots down tube? How often do you clean barrel?

Any damage to crown?

What equipment are you loading with? What is your brass prep?

What kind of load testing have you done?

What scope? What power? Scope level?

Have you shot a rifle that is Proven and tuned?

Are you using bunny ear bag, mono pod, rice bag for elevation?

Are you shooting off bipod or bags?

So far you're telling us you have a questionable bolt, brass/ ammo, and possibly barrel, and possibly technique issues..... That's alt of mechanical variables there.... Without factoring user error/ technique?

I hate to answer question with more questions. But need more info?

And above questions include technique related queries?

I personally think you at minimum Need to run a optimum charge weight and or ladder test, with quality brass /pill/ powder..... Made with impeccable technique, and components.

Edited by biglou13
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You haven't given it any good ammo yet. Nothing you listed would be under 2 MOA for a good lot out of the best barrel in the world. You need to try something of known quality like Federal Gold Medal Match, or any of the Match quality ammunition from Winchester, Remington etc. Federal Gold Medal is the gold standard here!

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You haven't given it any good ammo yet. Nothing you listed would be under 2 MOA for a good lot out of the best barrel in the world. You need to try something of known quality like Federal Gold Medal Match, or any of the Match quality ammunition from Winchester, Remington etc. Federal Gold Medal is the gold standard here!

Oddly, in my Rainier Arms barreled DPMS, Gold Medal match shot poorly. American Eagle 168 OTM M1A ammo was about half the group size. The Gold Medal can't be beat in my M1A and Remington 700 Police (original wood stocked version)

How is the fit between the barrel extension and upper receiver?

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biglou13 thank you for your time to write all this out. Bit overwhelming at first but I tried to respond.

(Answers to your questions appear in the quote box with your text)

Are you mounting / installing Barrel yourself?

My husband installed the barrel

What kind of MOA? Are you getting? How many shot group? How fast are you shooting? 2-5 Moa. 5 shot group. Shooting slow, but not taking more than 30 seconds between shots.

Does your cold bore zero differ than warm bore zero? Not sure.

Is first shot better than following shots? No. Actually the second shot of each group seems to pretty consistently go rather wild.

Have you tried testing @ 200 yards? No. Tried grouping it at 300 but couldn't keep all the shots on an ipsc cardboard target.

What powder/pill combo are you using? What is current load data? Will have to get back to you on this.

Have you chrono'd? Not in many moons.

Prone or from bench? Rested off bench.

Have you shot any .308 bolt or semi with any accuracy?

I have shot a 308 bolt gun with great accuracy.

Have you shot it on a sled? No.

What twist rate? How many shots down tube? How often do you clean barrel? Brand new barrel so maybe 200 rounds down it. Don't remember the twist.

Any damage to crown? No

What equipment are you loading with? What is your brass prep? Dillon 550. We think our swagger is screwing up the primer pockets this causing the leaking primers.

What kind of load testing have you done? Not enough.

What scope? What power? Scope level? Leupold 8-25 on 25 power and a Burris 1.5-8 on 8 power.

Have you shot a rifle that is Proven and tuned? Yes

Are you using bunny ear bag, mono pod, rice bag for elevation? Using one of those Caldwell rock shooting rests with a sandbag under the butt stock.

Are you shooting off bipod or bags? Haven't used my bipod to shoot groups.

So far you're telling us you have a questionable bolt, brass/ ammo, and possibly barrel, and possibly technique issues..... That's alt of mechanical variables there.... Without factoring user error/ technique?

I hate to answer question with more questions. But need more info?

And above questions include technique related queries?

I personally think you at minimum Need to run a optimum charge weight and or ladder test, with quality brass /pill/ powder..... Made with impeccable technique, and components.

. I was suggested the ladder test but from I gather, it needs to be done at more distance than 100 yards to be able to see the separation of groups and there isn't a piece of cardboard big enough to fit my group size on at 300 yards. I am guessing I should try some more load development. It is the impeccable technique I am concerned about. Edited by GetAwayDriva
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ok

here is my hypothesis ( wild guesses) : A. bad upper and or install A. bad ammo

can you mount barrel in another upper? have some one not husband mount bbl, slowly work up to torque spec.

test with a better bolt. shoot without comp at first (its going to buck harder) if you can get a decent group then put it back on....... try locktite method to time vs. crush or shim

shoot match grade ammo ... call bbl mfgr and see what they suggest most match grade ammo should get you close to 2 moa. if not better. sierra match king gold medal match 168 was my go to google is your friend here

take a minute or two between shots with bolt back. basically single load. let cool for longer every 10- 15 or so shots

i'd also stay away from 25x for now 15x max @100 then @200

try and borrow a chrono this will give us a ton of info!!!!!

have fresh eyes look at and shoot it.

loose primers can give you give you a great deal of velocity changes....and decrease in consistency!!!!!

get a a scope level.... gave me a break through shooting .308 bolt....

Edited by biglou13
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i'd also stay away from 25x for now 15x max @100 then @200

Related to this, verify that you have eliminated parallax at each yardage you shoot with the 'side focus'. (In focus does not mean parallax free. Perform the bob and weave to check it.) At high magnification, parallax can throw your group all over if you aren't paying attention to it.

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As far as technique, I don't shoot my AR10 any different than my mouse guns. For ammo, try many different quality rounds, you may be surprised at how different the groups are, even with the same bullet from different ammo manufacturers. My Armalite AR10 likes Hornady 168 Amax, but Freedom Munitions' 168Amax load do not shoot near as well out of it. Federal Gold medal 168 SMK is the most consistent, velocity wise, but groups just over 1" at 100. The best groups I have shot with it was with Freedom Munitions 155Amax in new brass. It put 6 rounds through one hole (5/8") at 100. The comp can affect accuracy also. As Dan suggested, try removing the comp and shooting a couple of groups. I had a comp "blow out" between the crown and the first chamber one time. The ports were angled on this brand of comp and the bore for the muzzle was too deep, leaving the material very thin in the area between the crown and first port. The hole started small and turned into a slot on either side of the comp (during the course of a match). By the time the "slot" had formed, my rifle was shooting 6-8" groups, I couldn't hit anything. I removed the comp after getting back home and the rifle grouped again. I contacted the company that made the comp and they took care of the issue.

Hurley

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Thank you Dan. I don't believe it is the scope/mount.

And thank you biglou13. I am definitely going to be doing some load testing and development. I have a new bolt on order and when it comes in I will remove the comp to shoot my groups.

Thank you M1A4ME. I don't know how to use a sling while shooting off a bench?

Thank you logiztix. I have heard about parallax but don't know how to check for it or fix it. What is the "bob and weave?"

Thank you Hurley for answering my intended question. I am glad to know that you don't do anything different when shooting the 308 compared to the mouse guns. That helps me :)

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I think Hurley's post falls nicely into the "meh, if you can shoot an AR-15 sub MOA hen you can shoot an AR-10" comment made right around post number 3!!!! Quit doubting yourself, get some good ammo and get to work. 308 isn't a mystery, there is tons of info on accuracy loads. The old standby is 42 grains of 4895 and a 168/175 grain Sierra Match King Bullet.

See you in Raton in a couple weeks!!! Kurt

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