Speed vs. Accuracy

[blacklab]

I am being told differant ways to help keep my scores up and was wondering if someone could tell me what the best way is. Last week we shot 3 classifers at a local club, here are my scores:

Name Division PF A B C D M NPM NS St. H St. M St. NPM St. NS Raw Pens Pts Time HF

Table Stakes Open Major 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 5.96 0 33 5.96 5.5369

Tic Toc Open Major 12 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 11.07 0 77 11.07 6.9557

Double Deal Open Major 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5.78 0 40 5.78 6.9204

Some people say that a A/C is fine if you keep your speed up. Other people say that if your not hitting a A/A your shooting faster then your ability. So my question is would I be better off slowing down a little and going for the A/A or trying to keep my speed up and settle for the A/C? I tried to do the math, but I don't really understand the scoring system completely. A point in the right direction would be appreciated, I don't want to keep practicing bad habits.

Thanks.

[Dr Mitch]

Get as many points as you can, as fast as you can get them.

Points per second. It is exactly like miles per hour. You take the number of points you shot, divided by the time you shot, and the result is points per second. Points per second is called Hit Factor. More points per second = higher hit factor.

[blacklab]

So speed is a little more inportant then accuracy as long as your not getting M's??

[mreed911]

So speed is a little more inportant then accuracy as long as your not getting M's??

For Major, A = 5 and B/C = 4. A Charlie hit loses you one point, so there's a balance between dropping one point to pick up speed, e.g. "how much more time would A/A take me?" Shorter stages, points matter more because the stage takes less time overall (you have more control over accuracy than time). Longer stages, time matters because you can shoot A/C at a faster time than the 10% of points on a target a C costs you (A/A=10, A/C=9) overall.

Someone else can probably explain it better than I can.

[BeerBaron]

as the others said you need both. points are super important. no matter how fast your time is you need something to divide by (ie points) otherwise the HF is zero.

IPSC is a HF game so you need to find the best balance that works AT YOUR CURRENT SKILL LEVEL. Blazing through stages at GM like speed but with D grade like hits will not get you good results. Nor will shooting 100% A's at a glacial pace work either.

In the end you'll find most of the top guys are simply shooting A's as fast as their current skill allows. Very few of them shoot stages without some C's etc but mostly they'll be bagging 90% of the points or so.

The balance does shift a little on stages. for instance, a stage with a lot of movement and just a few spread out targets (say 40 points but takes 15 seconds for a GM) on that stage points are more important than time (there is less of them available, dropping just 10 points - say grazed a no shoot - is 25% of the points). now take an extra 2 seconds of time. That is only 12% of the time....

If the GM performance was 40 points in 15 seconds that's a HF of 2.66 (very low HF stage btw)

If you take 2 seconds longer but achieve the same points that's 2.35 HF

If you go the blazing route and do it in 15 seconds but drop 10 points that's a HF of 2.00 (25% off the GM score).

In a slow stage but with low points the points become very important.

On the other hand we have a 160 point stage that a GM can run in say 16 seconds. 10HF

If you drop 10 points but manage to run that GM time you get 9.37

Conversely run the full 160 points but at 18 seconds and you get 8.88 HF

So on this stage time was pretty important. you can afford to run it at that fast pace, drop 10 points and be better off than the guy who shoots it clean but takes 2 seconds more.

That's the long answer. The shorter answer is: as you improve you learn to speed up all the non-shooting stuff so you can maximise time on the trigger (points gathering time). faster draw, faster splits, faster transitions, faster reloads, faster entries and exits, economy of movement, stage planning. They all mean you burn less time on the stage so you can use your trigger time effectively.

There are some anomalies (like the far out examples I mentioned) but the reality is (despite the scoring seeming complex) it's a very simple game. it's a points per second game. Whatever will get you the most points per second of time on stage is the way to go. If one plan is going to net 8 points per second averaged over your run and the other will get 9, it's clear which is the better tactic.

Try a few drills. try pushing speed to the point where you're dropping points and calculate the HF. Then shoot them clean just underneath your 'wheels come off' speed and see what that HF looks like.

Some people strategise over this a lot, but as I said it's simply gather as many points PER SECOND as your current ability will allow.

[blacklab]

Get as many points as you can, as fast as you can get them.

Points per second. It is exactly like miles per hour. You take the number of points you shot, divided by the time you shot, and the result is points per second. Points per second is called Hit Factor. More points per second = higher hit factor.

[perttime]

I'm sure there are equations to estimate what balance between points and time gives you the best results ON A PARTICULAR STAGE. As a rule of thumb, you want more A's than C's - and you don't want D's or M's. If shooting Minor, you don't really want C's either.

[blacklab]

DR. Mitch made it sound so easy to do the math, but it sounds like there is no simple answer. Sounds like every stage has it's own set of mind games you have to play. So let me rephrase the question. If you look at my scores is my hit factor in balance with my time? If I keep doing things like I am, pick up speed on my draw, reloads and planning am I on the right track or am I shooting faster then my ability?

[MemphisMechanic]

We cannot tell you.

The main thing were are missing? How effectively you used your time. How do your times compare to those two classifications above you? If you're new and B shooters are beating you by five seconds...

Well... I can promise you that you won't make up 5 seconds on a 15 second stage by shooting faster. Unless you are an A-shooter or better, the best place to focus upon for improvement is doing everything ELSE more quickly. Move more efficiently. Reload faster. Etc.

You're shooting good points. Keep that up while carving your raw time down to a smaller and smaller number number. Your title of this post is very telling - most newbies think they must be fast OR accurate.

Hit factor is the highest points in the shortest amount of time. Change your thinking to fast AND accurate.

[tanks]

We cannot tell you.

...

You're shooting good points. Keep that up while carving your raw time down to a smaller and smaller number number. Your title of this post is very telling - most newbies think they must be fast OR accurate.

Hit factor is the highest points in the shortest amount of time. Change your thinking to fast AND accurate.

To emphasize this let me put up some of my stats for a stage and compare it to the guy that won the stage at a recent match. (in Limited)

I shot 95 raw points in 37.12 seconds for a hit factor of 2.55 placing me 9th of 25 at 60.06%

He shot 91 raw points in 21.38 seconds for a hit factor of 4.26 placing 1st with 100%.

The stage had a lot of running back and forth and 5 shooting positions. Now, where do you think he shaved the extra 15.74 seconds? Yes, his splits are faster but we are talking 5 to 7 hundredths of a second per split, and 0.50 second on the draw at that stage (it was a 12" plate at 15 yards from a box to start). So, shooting faster was not the most significant time gain. What was much faster was transitions, getting in and out of positions. His non shooting time was significantly faster than mine.

The big overall difference was shooting SOONER not faster.

[theWacoKid]

Given the points and time shot in those classifiers you will not do much better until your time begins to drop. In the case of Table Stakes let's round your HF to 5.5. This means at your effort each second was worth 5.5 points. In other words, you could shoot 5.5 less points 1 second faster or 5.5 more points 1 second slower and you will still finish with the same HF. So somehow you need to improve on one of those situations. Since 5.5 points aren't even available, you could only improve this case by 2 points, there is much more room to improve by shaving off seconds of time. There is a limit on the points you can earn, but there is no limit on how fast you can shoot. Get lots of points, avoid all penalties, and do it very quickly. It's not a game of one or the other.

Low hit factor stages mean points are a little more important than high hit factor stages because the value of points relative to seconds is different. Think of time as giving value to the points you earn. The faster you pick up points the more valuable they become. On the same note, the faster you shoot penalties the less they hurt you, though they are still stage killers.

Look at the HF of the class you're interested in for each classifier. Figure out what time is required to achieve that hit factor if you shoot 100% of the points. You must be able to beat that time if you want your score at that level. There's no way around it.

[FTDMFR]

One way to think about it is to ask how much extra time you can take to turn a C into an A (by either refining your sight picture before you shoot or taking a make up shot after) and still come out ahead.

If you're shooting Open major, the difference between an A and a C is 1 point.

Say you have a 10 HF stage. In order for you to come out ahead, you have to be able to turn that C into an A in less than (1 point / 10 HF) = 0.1s. If you need to take longer than that, you're better off leaving the C.

If it's a 5 HF stage, then you have (1 point / 5 HF) = 0.2s to turn a C into an A.

So, it depends on 1) the stage HF, and 2) how much extra time you need on a given target distance / difficulty in order to ensure an A instead of a C, given your level of skill.

Edited July 12, 2016 by FTDMFR

[MemphisMechanic]

... and of course... you need to be SURE that make-up shot won't follow your first hole into the C/D zone or the no-shoot.

Making up a C with a C doesn't help very much. But we all manage it fairly often until we learn our lesson.

[blacklab]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to explain it so even I can understand it. I think for now I'll keep my shooting speed the way it is, it don't sound like a few C's is a kiss of death and I don't think I could turn a C into an A in a few tenths of a second anyway. I think I should spend more time on stage planning, as of right now my planning consists of monkey see monkey do. I just sit back, watch what everyone else is doing and copy them. I'm sure there is a better way to do my planning and cut my times down.

[Jake Di Vita]

The best thing for a shooter to do at a match is go out there and just hit the center of the targets at a speed that is quick but comfortable. Just go and call every shot. 99% of us really don't need to complicate it any more than that.

[Less]

The best thing for a shooter to do at a match is go out there and just hit the center of the targets at a speed that is quick but comfortable. Just go and call every shot. 99% of us really don't need to complicate it any more than that.

This... So much this.

[tanks]

...I think I should spend more time on stage planning, as of right now my planning consists of monkey see monkey do. I just sit back, watch what everyone else is doing and copy them.

Being a lefty unfortunately I do not have that luxury. So, I have to think of the ways I can do it. When I have no choice due to lefty unfriendly stage designs I have to make sure I do not break the 180 when moving right to left and reloading at the same time or not muzzling myself when pulling doors that open to the left with my right hand. Interesting challenges. Of course all of that costs me extra time compared to right handers.

Edited July 12, 2016 by tanks

[lee blackman]

I find myself just starting to move out of B. I'm finally getting more consistent, and seeing things I didn't before. I remember when I first started, I ran stages in one speed the whole way thru, either slow or fast. As I moved into B, I tried to balance what I called the speed vs accuracy paradox. You can do either but not both at the same time.

Now I'm starting to realize that there isn't speed or accuracy, you just shoot. But you determine how much fundamentals to apply to each target as you negotiate the course and weigh the value of time.

For instance is it worth that extra .15 of a second to let that front sight settle on the target before you break the shot.... Depends... On a 3 yard target, you really don't need a front sight, its a point shot target, and you should be moving while you engage it if you can. On the other hand that 35 yard partially covered target with the no shoot in front. You should stop in a solid shooting stance, and apply full fundamentals to the shot. Let that front sight come to rest, pressing the trigger slow feeling every crick as it comes back, then following thru on the shot.

What I'm saying is you shoot as fast as you can make the hits, no faster no slower, that's supposed to be a fixed subconscious thing. What you have to build is the ability to evaluate each target in each array, and determine how much or how little fundamentals you need to apply on each target. Its not about speed, but efficiency.

[MemphisMechanic]

Being a lefty unfortunately I do not have that luxury. So, I have to think of the ways I can do it. When I have no choice due to lefty unfriendly stage designs I have to make sure I do not break the 180 when moving right to left and reloading at the same time or not muzzling myself when pulling doors that open to the left with my right hand. Interesting challenges. Of course all of that costs me extra time compared to right handers.

This is nearly a pre-defeated attitude. We have two local lefties who whine and moan and complain that even the slightest bias exists and they pretty much use that as the inevitable reason they didn't come out on top.

Then there's me. I have this conversation nearly verbatim all the time:

"Man, I feel for you, always having to find a way to shoot stages against the flow. That's gotta be hard."

"Not at all. I'm used to it. I think it made me get good at stage breakdowns more quickly, and I expect to have more awkward leans around walls. I get trained on that at every local match. When there's a hard leaning shot for the righties, I actually think it's much more in my favor than it usually is in theirs. They aren't as practiced with it."

Did I mention I'm left handed AND shoot production? You better believe I've come up with some creative stage plans to compensate. But at least it isn't revolver.

Edited July 13, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[arkadi]

+1.

Being a lefty, I never felt penalized in the competitions I shoot. The leaning stuff is either symmetrical, or there is start position choice to select direction of flow. Contrary, SHO stages are sometimes built to favor lefties. I smile when righties struggle, then I sweep the stage in one comfortable motion.

I shoot Level 3 only though.

[Uomu]

On 7/12/2016 at 9:09 AM, BeerBaron said:

as the others said you need both. points are super important. no matter how fast your time is you need something to divide by (ie points) otherwise the HF is zero.

IPSC is a HF game so you need to find the best balance that works AT YOUR CURRENT SKILL LEVEL. Blazing through stages at GM like speed but with D grade like hits will not get you good results. Nor will shooting 100% A's at a glacial pace work either.

In the end you'll find most of the top guys are simply shooting A's as fast as their current skill allows. Very few of them shoot stages without some C's etc but mostly they'll be bagging 90% of the points or so.

The balance does shift a little on stages. for instance, a stage with a lot of movement and just a few spread out targets (say 40 points but takes 15 seconds for a GM) on that stage points are more important than time (there is less of them available, dropping just 10 points - say grazed a no shoot - is 25% of the points). now take an extra 2 seconds of time. That is only 12% of the time....

If the GM performance was 40 points in 15 seconds that's a HF of 2.66 (very low HF stage btw)

If you take 2 seconds longer but achieve the same points that's 2.35 HF

If you go the blazing route and do it in 15 seconds but drop 10 points that's a HF of 2.00 (25% off the GM score).

In a slow stage but with low points the points become very important.

On the other hand we have a 160 point stage that a GM can run in say 16 seconds. 10HF

If you drop 10 points but manage to run that GM time you get 9.37

Conversely run the full 160 points but at 18 seconds and you get 8.88 HF

So on this stage time was pretty important. you can afford to run it at that fast pace, drop 10 points and be better off than the guy who shoots it clean but takes 2 seconds more.

That's the long answer. The shorter answer is: as you improve you learn to speed up all the non-shooting stuff so you can maximise time on the trigger (points gathering time). faster draw, faster splits, faster transitions, faster reloads, faster entries and exits, economy of movement, stage planning. They all mean you burn less time on the stage so you can use your trigger time effectively.

There are some anomalies (like the far out examples I mentioned) but the reality is (despite the scoring seeming complex) it's a very simple game. it's a points per second game. Whatever will get you the most points per second of time on stage is the way to go. If one plan is going to net 8 points per second averaged over your run and the other will get 9, it's clear which is the better tactic.

Try a few drills. try pushing speed to the point where you're dropping points and calculate the HF. Then shoot them clean just underneath your 'wheels come off' speed and see what that HF looks like.

Some people strategise over this a lot, but as I said it's simply gather as many points PER SECOND as your current ability will allow.

Very nice explanation!

[rowdyb]

help yourself and think of it as speed and accuracy. they are not mutually exclusive the way "vs" makes it seem.

[Dr Mitch]

DVC

[tanks]

One other thing. You listed classifier scores above. Classifiers are a bit different than actual stages in that most of the time almost half of your time score is the sum of your draw speed and reload speed whereas those do not matter as much during a stage as most of the time one is doing those actions while also moving.

A low hanging fruit when starting out is to work on draw and reload times for improving classifier results.

[buckley]

There is lots of good advice in this discussion. I would add something.

If you can, go to a range and shoot some fairly simple exercise, say, a draw and two shots on two targets at 25 feet. Do it at a comfortable but not slow pace. Measure your time and points. Then do it a little faster and a little slower. Compare the hit factor of each attempt. You will see how your changes in speed affect your time, points, and hit factor. If possible, do this at different distances. This is the beginning of learning about your own current abilities compared with USPSA scoring.

One note: If you are somewhat of a beginner, do not push too hard. It is important to develop excellent safety habits before going fast. And, some of your movements will need to be pushed into your subconscious control before you can go fast anyway.

Different people have different hit factor abilities as they improve or degrade. And, some will have great abilities, for example, when shooting freestyle (2 handed) compared with weak hand only. It's all a big mix. The big thing will be learning what your abilities are, shooting to the edge of them, and improving them.