Speed vs. Accuracy

[hwansikcjswo]

I have a good news and sad news here.

In your practice, if you don't develop the ability to shoot both accurate and fast, you will not going to have it at matches.

When I say practice, it is not experimental practice but it is repetitive practice. 

So many people think experiments are practice but it's not.

My point is that you need to experiment how fast you can shoot A's at certain distances and once you find out practice them over and over. You can shoot misses and deltas experimenting how fast and accurate you shoot BUT you should not PRACTICE (repetition) shooting Misses or deltas.

The sad news is that if you don't practice, you can't shoot fast and accurate.

This is what I found out from my own training.

GOOD EXAMPLE is Eric Grauffel. On his interview with Mike S, he said "My training goal is 5% Charlie everything else Alpha"

Ben Stoeger and Alex Gutt often train with a target that is black on everywhere except A zone. So he's forcing him to shoot As but as fast as possible.

 

[Jake Di Vita]

6 minutes ago, hwansikcjswo said:

My point is that you need to experiment how fast you can shoot A's at certain distances and once you find out practice them over and over. You can shoot misses and deltas experimenting how fast and accurate you shoot BUT you should not PRACTICE (repetition) shooting Misses or deltas.

I believe this is completely inaccurate. You're not going to develop a higher skill ceiling by never shooting misses or deltas in practice. If you only practice at the pace that you can shoot A's at, you're never going to get any faster at shooting A's. 

9 minutes ago, hwansikcjswo said:

GOOD EXAMPLE is Eric Grauffel. On his interview with Mike S, he said "My training goal is 5% Charlie everything else Alpha"

That's great for Eric, but you gotta understand at this point in his shooting career he's not going to get much better at the raw skills than he already is. What he is practicing here is his match pace consistency. For everyone else that isn't one of the best shooters in history, you're going to need to push harder than that to get really good. This means you will sometimes (dare I say often) shoot D's and M's while practicing. You have to practice at a pace beyond your match pace if you want your match pace to improve. Remember that training stimulus MUST EXCEED whatever you may see or do on match day.

Eric really doesn't need to improve his raw gun handling skills. If Eric shoots a mistake free match, it is practically a guarantee that he will win. If Joe C class shoots a mistake free match, he's still way back in the pack. This is the danger of using a top shooter's practice regime as a blueprint for your own. What Eric is trying to get out of his practice is very much different from what an average B class shooter needs to get out of his practice.

[Nathanb]

And taking those classes with those top shooters they'll tell you that too. They will tell you how to do it then they'll tell you how they got to that point as they know that the skills gap is there 

[hwansikcjswo]

1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

I believe this is completely inaccurate. You're not going to develop a higher skill ceiling by never shooting misses or deltas in practice. If you only practice at the pace that you can shoot A's at, you're never going to get any faster at shooting A's. 

 

 

 

I think either I didn't explain well or you didnt understand what I wrote.

I 100% agree with you about going crazy to "EXCEED"" like you said.

I am just saying that there are 2 parts we need in our training.

Exceeding and repetition. I just call them Experiment and practice.

I personally need to do both. I push hard in the experiment and once I pushed my skill level, I repeat what I pushed. That is the process of the experiment and the practice.

It's making your current 100% your new 90%. in the experiment part. Then make the new 100% consistent by repeating them in  the practice part.

Edited January 22, 2017 by hwansikcjswo

[Jake Di Vita]

5 minutes ago, hwansikcjswo said:

I personally need to do both. I push hard in the experiment and once I pushed my skill level, I repeat what I pushed. That is the process of the experiment and the practice.

It's making your current 100% your new 90%. in the experiment part. Then make the new 100% consistent by repeating them in  the practice part.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you....this is what I think you're saying: You do a couple of reps fast (100%, what you're calling experimenting) then do a bunch of reps comfortable (90%, what you're calling practice). If that's what you are saying, there is a problem. That problem is that it's important to learn/refine the skill at the same pace that you are going when you make the mistake. If you're practicing your draws and you can do them mechanically correct 100% of the time at 1.2, but at 1.1 you start to make mistakes forming your grip. You can't really fix that by practicing at 1.2. You have to correct the mistake at the pace that causes the mistake.

Some practice at match pace is certainly a good thing but to me that's more match prep stuff than everyday practice because it's more dependent on your mentality than your physical skill. If you're struggling with bringing practice pace to matches I could see doing more match pace practice. To me, the reason why Eric does all his practice here is because his skills are already good enough to win any match if he doesn't make any mistakes. My skills are not that good, so I still have to push and extend my comfort zone.

I try to warm up (which may take 15-20 minutes) then as soon as I start the work sets of practice I'm always moving at a pace that causes mistakes in around half my reps. Maybe I'll do a rep a little slower if I egregiously make the same mistake a few times in a row. This is the only way I grow as a shooter. I'm not going to get any real value from 90% practice. 

[Sam]

Maybe what Hwan is referring to is the natural process of myelin wrapping?

[Jake Di Vita]

22 minutes ago, Sam said:

Maybe what Hwan is referring to is the natural process of myelin wrapping?

Sure, I think that process still applies to what I'm saying as well. You can certainly slowly drill the process to encourage myelin wrapping, but I think ultimately you get more value out of the practice when you're working on the ragged edge. We know that just because you can do something slowly doesn't mean you can do that same thing quickly. It seems to me that you can't rely entirely on having efficient pathways. I don't know this for sure but my feeling is myelination happens regardless of the speed you are moving. You gotta be able to insulate that correct pathway while you're moving incredibly fast. I think it's real hard to maximize your practice without both.

[Sam]

 Jake, I've been away from the forum for far too long.   It good to be reading your posts again, as I make my way back into shooting. 

I'm thinking "ragged edge" the way your personality type wraps myelin.     I get that because I'm a "ragged edge learner" too.  Got the scars to prove it.

[Sam]

And so I wonder, how does a more mellow soul, train for competition, as opposed to someone in possession of what I've come to think of as the "crazy gene"? 

[Mikeski]

Here is a classic example of speed vs accuracy. This past weekend was the Florida State Championship. I am a Open D Class shooter and this is how I finished. 198 A's, 7 B's, 57 C's, 4 D's and 3 M's for a total of 1224 points. My time was 264.37 seconds for a 58.44% 29/52 place. 1st D Class. Another shooter from our club is a B shooter and finished 167 A's, 4 B's, 69 C's, 26 D's and 3 M's for a total of 1149 points. His time was 208.38 seconds for  a 70.24% 19/52 place. 1st B Class. So even though I was more accurate, that 1 minute in extra time I took on stages is keeping me from moving up in class. So as far as a points per second. I was at 4.62 and he was at 5.51. Now most of the time I know I can make up with faster reloads, draw-first shot, movement into shooting positions and getting into a little better shape. So I think now I will start to video myself during matches to see where I can start shaving my time down.

[Jake Di Vita]

Nice talking with you again too Sam.

3 hours ago, Sam said:

And so I wonder, how does a more mellow soul, train for competition, as opposed to someone in possession of what I've come to think of as the "crazy gene"? 

This is a hard one (giggity). I don't know if it's really possible to develop truly formidable shooting skills if the person isn't training on the edge of what they're capable of.

I know that I was pretty uncomfortable with heights before I started climbing, now I can dangle from my fingertips 60 feet above the ground and not feel any sort of twinge in my gut. My first thought for the mellow person is they're going to have to learn how to force themselves to be uncomfortable. That is certainly much easier to do if you have the crazy gene.

[diver60540]

On 7/12/2016 at 9:59 AM, tanks said:

To emphasize this let me put up some of my stats for a stage and compare it to the guy that won the stage at a recent match. (in Limited)

I shot 95 raw points in 37.12 seconds for a hit factor of 2.55 placing me 9th of 25 at 60.06%

He shot 91 raw points in 21.38 seconds for a hit factor of 4.26 placing 1st with 100%.

The stage had a lot of running back and forth and 5 shooting positions. Now, where do you think he shaved the extra 15.74 seconds? Yes, his splits are faster but we are talking 5 to 7 hundredths of a second per split, and 0.50 second on the draw at that stage (it was a 12" plate at 15 yards from a box to start). So, shooting faster was not the most significant time gain. What was much faster was transitions, getting in and out of positions. His non shooting time was significantly faster than mine.

The big overall difference was shooting SOONER not faster.

There I am, but probably at 38 or 40 seconds

[BeerBaron]

On 24/01/2017 at 2:40 AM, Mikeski said:

Here is a classic example of speed vs accuracy. This past weekend was the Florida State Championship. I am a Open D Class shooter and this is how I finished. 198 A's, 7 B's, 57 C's, 4 D's and 3 M's for a total of 1224 points. My time was 264.37 seconds for a 58.44% 29/52 place. 1st D Class. Another shooter from our club is a B shooter and finished 167 A's, 4 B's, 69 C's, 26 D's and 3 M's for a total of 1149 points. His time was 208.38 seconds for  a 70.24% 19/52 place. 1st B Class. So even though I was more accurate, that 1 minute in extra time I took on stages is keeping me from moving up in class. So as far as a points per second. I was at 4.62 and he was at 5.51. Now most of the time I know I can make up with faster reloads, draw-first shot, movement into shooting positions and getting into a little better shape. So I think now I will start to video myself during matches to see where I can start shaving my time down.

 

in a total shooting time of 264 seconds you are unlikely to gain 60 seconds (or 1/4 of your time) back from reloads and draws. especially in open where you do only 2 or 3 reloads per match. 

 

my strong suggestion would be video  your stage runs and then run them through shot coach to figure out where you are spending time on the stage. 

 

my feeling is most of your time will be - moving between positions (fortunately you don't need massive cardio fitness for this, we are talking small bursts of speed) and transition time between targets. 

 

in a basic 12 stage match you likely only have 10 draws or less. of those draws probably only 6 will be direct to a target, the others will be draw while moving and the remaining 2 stages will be table starts etc. even if you cut draw from 1.5 sec to 1sec that's likely to give you back around 3 seconds out of 264.

 

reloads are the same. lets say even 5 reloads per match. 3 of them are likely to be during movement. 2 standing reloads if you cut from 1.5 sec to 1 sec gives you back 1 second total.

 

run some stage vids through shot coach, look at stage planning. efficiency of movement, and a big one is transitions. you had approx 260 scoring rounds. lets take off 40 rounds for steel. that leaves 220 on paper. that's 130 targets and in arrays of typically 3 or 4 targets that's approx 100 transitions. if you are doing 0.50 transitions (not uncommon) cutting them down even to 0.30 would net you something like 20 seconds. 

 

Movement and planning will likely be a big time saver too, but to get the answers some analysis of your current on stage performance is required.