Rangerdug Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it. To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Who is "they"? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge40 Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 I personally think there is enough divisions already. I don't think we need to keep adding them. USPSA is traditionally a pistol shooting sport and I feel like it should stay that way. If a division is so different that you potentially have to specify a special starting position just for it I think its just too far off. My club has special PCC matches. If you want to shoot a PCC find a PCC match to shoot. Thats just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Huge IBTL. Sure this is America but MD's have the power to allow or disallow a division in their matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernelofwisdom Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 The rules have literally only been out a few days. It can't be surprising that many clubs have not included the division yet. RO's have barely had a chance to review the rules. Of course some have but its not reasonable to think there would be a general rollout this quickly. If this is about a specific club perhaps discussing this with the MD would be better than a general thread. Much of the sentiment about the maturity of the referenced club officials would apply back to people insistent the match be run right away the way they want it. If carbine demand is there clubs will accommodate it some faster than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it. To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Cute -- but at the club I used to run, there were rules about shooting rifles in the pits. Those rules limited bullets to either being .22 LR, or centerfire pistol cartridges using lead (not jacketed or plated) bullets traveling no more than 1000 feet per second. Those were the facility's rules, based on the Board's thinking about berm construction, etc. (Never mind that Open and Production shooters routinely shoot jacketed bullets at velocities significantly higher than 1000 fps.) There's absolutely no way that they would allow us to offer PCC. Wisely the rulebook gives match directors latitude in what to allow/not allow. Competitors are always free to voice their opinions or vote with their wallet/willingness to attend. I thought the provisional SS division was the silliest thing I ever heard of when it was introduced -- but since it was feasible to offer it, we did. In our neck of the woods we rarely had more than 1-2 out of 75 shooting it; it never did take off. Offering PCC at this club would not be feasible -- would you prefer that the club stop offering USPSA all together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Then again, being told that we have to include a particular division also seems to be anti-freedom and anti-American..... I know I got sucked in too -- but to avoid having to lock this later, can we focus on how to best convince a match director to offer PCC? I'm thinking if a significant proportion of the core workers and core competitors want it, that an MD would accommodate their desires -- assuming that it was both safe and feasible to do so..... I know that the first people I listened to were the folks who made my match happen -- the stage designers, registration/stats, stage builders, ROs, etc. The second group of people I listened to were the competitors who attended the match regularly, say 10/12 times or more, especially if they always helped with teardown, and occasionally helped with setup.... The folks most likely to be ignored? The ones who'd occasionally show up, or those who would only shoot and scoot, performing as little work during the match as possible... So to sum it up -- decisions are made by those who show up regularly and help make the match happen. Want a match to offer PCC? Become one of those people. Don't want to? Then politely voice your opinion to the MD, and let it go -- it'll either happen or it won't. If it doesn't, and there's another match the same weekend that offers PCC, go there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdug Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 I personally think there is enough divisions already. I don't think we need to keep adding them. USPSA is traditionally a pistol shooting sport and I feel like it should stay that way. If a division is so different that you potentially have to specify a special starting position just for it I think its just too far off. My club has special PCC matches. If you want to shoot a PCC find a PCC match to shoot. Thats just my 2 cents. The only division that should matter is the one you shoot. Other that WTFC!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdug Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Huge IBTL. Sure this is America but MD's have the power to allow or disallow a division in their matches. If there is good reason for, Safety, range limitations, or state laws I got it. However, if it is ego driven or for obstinate reasons, we are better than that. You go to shoot because you like to shoot. At any given match you are going to shoot a gun, at which point you will be scored. If it falls within the USPSA rules, who cares what gun you shoot!?! PCC is nothing more than a glorified open gun. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited July 4, 2016 by Rangerdug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Huge IBTL. Sure this is America but MD's have the power to allow or disallow a division in their matches. If there is good reason for, Safety, range limitations, or state laws I got it. However, if it is ego driven or that obstinate reasons, we are better than that. You go to shoot because you like to shoot. At any given match you are going to shoot a gun, at which point you will be scored. If it falls within the USPSA rules, who cares what gun you shoot!?! PCC is nothing more than a glorified open gun. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk WTFC? I'm guessing "who the f*#k cares?" At this point it sounds like you do. More than most! Also, you will get exactly nowhere trying to strong arm anybody, whether it be some guys on a forum or an MD at a match you want to shoot. And guess what? It works exactly like Nik described it above. As an MD I mostly ignored those guys who bitched about the match as they were driving out the gate while I still had a few hours work to do after a match. If you wanted to influence my decisions you had to be a contributor or possibly be a part of the vocal majority and respectfully make your wishes known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 i don't get all the hate, consternation, etc. pcc is a fun new division where folks can run uspsa COF's with "subguns." what's not to like? slightly different starting positions. it's an economically lighter entry point in the games vs limited/2011 and certainly open guns. it's certainly a boon to the gun industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 The only perceived downside to PCC is that match overalls will change dramatically with experienced riflemen playing and taking the top spots. That's a pride issue, which makes it a fake issue, like too many divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernelofwisdom Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Excellent straw man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadog_99 Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 That's certainly not the only perceived potential downside as discussed extensively in another thread. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it. To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match". I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 It's up to the MD's. We already sometimes have revo/production matches. We have Single Stack Nationals, Production Nationals, etc. So, it's clear that we have matches where only certain divisions are represented. If an MD or club decides to only have matches with certain divisions, I believe that is completely within their discretion. Very simple, if you don't like what divisions are offered, don't shoot at that club, don't give them your money, find a club that caters to what you want to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Nationals =/= regular club match. My experience is that every division is welcome at every regular club match. PCC will give a different experience as not every club will be able or willing to offer it. Stand alone PCC matches are a much better fit IMO but that was not the prevailing idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Since it's a provisional division, shouldn't the membership decide whether or not it should go forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Well, the MD's have to run the match. I think they should be the ones deciding what works or doesn't work for them. The rule book supports that idea as well. It really shouldn't be too surprising that people are treating rifles different than pistols. They are different. It will take some time to integrate pistol caliber rifles at handgun matches - time will tell if it can be done. I suspect it can but "throwing shade" (*) at MD's that don't share your opinion is not likely to bring them around. (*) that's right, I'm totally hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 i don't get all the hate, consternation, etc. pcc is a fun new division where folks can run uspsa COF's with "subguns." what's not to like? slightly different starting positions. it's an economically lighter entry point in the games vs limited/2011 and certainly open guns. it's certainly a boon to the gun industry. I will say -- we probably had at least one, often more than one target per match that was enough of a weird lean/tight angle shot that you'd never be able to shoot it with a carbine....... .....so, allowing PCC in the same match, would require changing the skills we were looking to test..... I'm pretty sure I'd rather set PCC as a side match, or as a separate standalone match.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) POP?! Really? What a crock of shit! Sounds like inferiority complex for the most part. Bottom line it's good for the future of our sport and if people cannot handle changes then quit the sport or simply grow up. It can be done, it's being done so why oppose it. Edited July 4, 2016 by norbs007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdug Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Huge IBTL. Sure this is America but MD's have the power to allow or disallow a division in their matches. If there is good reason for, Safety, range limitations, or state laws I got it. However, if it is ego driven or that obstinate reasons, we are better than that. You go to shoot because you like to shoot. At any given match you are going to shoot a gun, at which point you will be scored. If it falls within the USPSA rules, who cares what gun you shoot!?! PCC is nothing more than a glorified open gun. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk WTFC? I'm guessing "who the f*#k cares?" At this point it sounds like you do. More than most! Also, you will get exactly nowhere trying to strong arm anybody, whether it be some guys on a forum or an MD at a match you want to shoot. And guess what? It works exactly like Nik described it above. As an MD I mostly ignored those guys who bitched about the match as they were driving out the gate while I still had a few hours work to do after a match. If you wanted to influence my decisions you had to be a contributor or possibly be a part of the vocal majority and respectfully make your wishes known. You read it right. However you have missed my point. As stated before this is a individual sport, meaning you're only responsible for your actions. Delving deeper the gun, ammo, equipment, and division are all shooter preference((IAW the rules). That being said you can only worry about you. I do have room to be upset. 5 of the local matches in my area are not allowing PCC's not do safety concerns but because of narrow mindedness. Now how can I be influential as you mentioned in changing attitudes, if in the end, i am not allowed to shoot at the match. Some one mentioned in an early post how can this be so contentious, it just started. Exactly!!! Even Nik alluded to the ignorance being demonstrated, when talking about velocities. Sarge, you yourself stated you bought a PCC. Why? Because it looks fun. As one who has shot several times, I can say it is a blast. I absolutely do care. I care that I am given the opportunity to shoot a sanctioned division. I don't care what you or anyone else wants to shoot or does shoot. That is your choice, good on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Quit the sport???? Really???? Because some people who like this sport don't agree with changing the sport, they should quit. That's a ridiculous premise. Why shouldn't the majority of members be permitted to self-regulate what they want and what they don't want in the sport. If this provisional division does not garner majority support, the experiment will fail and should result in the removal of the provisional division. On the other hand, if a majority of members like it, it should become a division in our sport and we should move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdug Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 i don't get all the hate, consternation, etc. pcc is a fun new division where folks can run uspsa COF's with "subguns." what's not to like? slightly different starting positions. it's an economically lighter entry point in the games vs limited/2011 and certainly open guns. it's certainly a boon to the gun industry.I will say -- we probably had at least one, often more than one target per match that was enough of a weird lean/tight angle shot that you'd never be able to shoot it with a carbine............so, allowing PCC in the same match, would require changing the skills we were looking to test..... I'm pretty sure I'd rather set PCC as a side match, or as a separate standalone match.... That represents the challenge. I have stated before that for every perceived advantage there are more disadvantages to shooting PCC in a handgun match. That should be celebrated. If it was easy everyone would do it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 i don't get all the hate, consternation, etc. pcc is a fun new division where folks can run uspsa COF's with "subguns." what's not to like? slightly different starting positions. it's an economically lighter entry point in the games vs limited/2011 and certainly open guns. it's certainly a boon to the gun industry.I will say -- we probably had at least one, often more than one target per match that was enough of a weird lean/tight angle shot that you'd never be able to shoot it with a carbine............so, allowing PCC in the same match, would require changing the skills we were looking to test..... I'm pretty sure I'd rather set PCC as a side match, or as a separate standalone match.... That represents the challenge. I have stated before that for every perceived advantage there are more disadvantages to shooting PCC in a handgun match. That should be celebrated. If it was easy everyone would do it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It's not a challenge if the target isn't visible to you from anywhere...... If we move the target, we reduce the difficulty for the other seven divisions...... Seven divisions use broomsticks that are less than a foot in length; the eighth uses one that's 18-24 inches longer -- there's the rub. .....'cause I'm guessing you won't be ok with 2 mikes, 1 procedural for every such target..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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