Any advantage with a Single Action Only?

[BASE772]

Not trying to change the rules here. Just want an honest opinion.

If SAO only pistols were allowed in Production do you feel they have an advantage over striker fired guns?

I don't see any. With some of the upgrades on striker triggers they can get scary light.

I currently shoot an SP-01 Shadow and just bought a Sig Legion SAO for a fun gun. Very impressive gun. But I don't see any advantage with it over my CZ.

Again not trying to change the rules. Just curious what others think.

Thanks

Edited July 1, 2016 by BASE772

[Hi-Power Jack]

SAO is a LOT easier for ME to shoot well ...

I have very little experience with a light striker trigger.

Isn't the SP-01 basically a SAO except for the first shot?

Seems to me (My opinion) is that your SP-01 has three advantages

over a Glock - better trigger, more accurate and heavier.

But, that's only MY opinion ...

[Maximis228]

The triggers dont even compare. SA only absolutely has an advantage over Striker fired guns.

You still see the advantage now. All the top dudes are shooting steel DA/SA guns right now.

[bikerburgess]

Just to be clear, "All the top dudes" does not include 2nd and 3rd at last years Nationals, I believe the difference between first and second was ONE charlie out of 408 rounds

[bikerburgess]

The real answer to the question is no but the perceived advantage would make it into a custom 2011 division like Limited and Open. When Ben started wining Nationals he was in the minority shooting DA/SA guns now that everyone has jumped on that band wagon plastic is the minority. I have watched shooters change from GLOCKs to CZ and never reach the same match performance with the CZ that THEY had with the GLOCK, I';m not saying one is better than the other just that some shooters will perform better with different pistols. Unfortunately (unless you are a gun seller) many(most) shooters do not experiment scientifically to see what truly works better for them, or practice with what they all ready have to get better, they instead buy whatever the new hot pistol is.

[GrumpyOne]

The real answer to the question is no but the perceived advantage would make it into a custom 2011 division like Limited and Open. When Ben started wining Nationals he was in the minority shooting DA/SA guns now that everyone has jumped on that band wagon plastic is the minority. I have watched shooters change from GLOCKs to CZ and never reach the same match performance with the CZ that THEY had with the GLOCK, I';m not saying one is better than the other just that some shooters will perform better with different pistols. Unfortunately (unless you are a gun seller) many(most) shooters do not experiment scientifically to see what truly works better for them, or practice with what they all ready have to get better, they instead buy whatever the new hot pistol is.

This is exactly correct.

[Dr Mitch]

It would be an advantage for new shooters who are not good at triggering. That is all. There are too many other aspects of shooting to for it to be a huge advantage.

Very few guns are prohibited from Production that someone might buy and want to play with, that possibly suit the division better than others, i.e. SAO CZs in 9mm. Nothing is perfect.

[BASE772]

The real answer to the question is no but the perceived advantage would make it into a custom 2011 division like Limited and Open. When Ben started wining Nationals he was in the minority shooting DA/SA guns now that everyone has jumped on that band wagon plastic is the minority. I have watched shooters change from GLOCKs to CZ and never reach the same match performance with the CZ that THEY had with the GLOCK, I';m not saying one is better than the other just that some shooters will perform better with different pistols. Unfortunately (unless you are a gun seller) many(most) shooters do not experiment scientifically to see what truly works better for them, or practice with what they all ready have to get better, they instead buy whatever the new hot pistol is.

I agree with this 100%.

As I stated before I bought the P226 Legion SAO just for fun. Being a 1911 shooter I thought, "This might be fun".

To my suprise I shoot this pistol better than the CZ SP-01 Shadow and P320. My groups are as good as the CZ and my transitions are faster. Never would have guess it. So yes, if the 226 SAO was Production legal the CZ's would go.

Shot a match Limited minor and done well with it.

[PatJones]

Not trying to change the rules here. Just want an honest opinion.

If SAO pistols were allowed in Production do you feel they have an advantage over striker fired guns?

I don't see any. With some of the upgrades on striker triggers they can get scary light.

I currently shoot an SP-01 Shadow and just bought a Sig Legion SAO for a fun gun. Very impressive gun. But I don't see any advantage with it over my CZ.

Again not trying to change the rules. Just curious what others think.

Thanks

You just described Limited division. Do you feel double action and striker-fired guns are competitive there?

[BASE772]

Not trying to change the rules here. Just want an honest opinion.

If SAO pistols were allowed in Production do you feel they have an advantage over striker fired guns?

I don't see any. With some of the upgrades on striker triggers they can get scary light.

I currently shoot an SP-01 Shadow and just bought a Sig Legion SAO for a fun gun. Very impressive gun. But I don't see any advantage with it over my CZ.

Again not trying to change the rules. Just curious what others think.

Thanks

You just described Limited division. Do you feel double action and striker-fired guns are competitive there?

I would say it depends on how competitive you want to be and skill level. IMO a striker fired or DA gun that shoots Major are competitive as long as you shoot them well. Several high level shooters shoot striker fired in Limited.

But was talking about Production. If someone showed up with a CZ SAO and wanted to shoot Production I wouldn't feel like they had an advantage over my DA/SA SP-01 or a P320. None.

[BASE772]

It would be an advantage for new shooters who are not good at triggering. That is all. There are too many other aspects of shooting to for it to be a huge advantage.

Very few guns are prohibited from Production that someone might buy and want to play with, that possibly suit the division better than others, i.e. SAO CZs in 9mm. Nothing is perfect.

I agree here as well. Way to many other aspects of shooting the stage than just one shot vs a DA/SA gun.

[Speed0verdose]

For CZ's it would just come down to having a Firing Pin Block and not. Other than that I wouldn't see any difference other than an advantage to only 1 type of dry firing lol

[Nightops]

It would just be L10 without magwells, and still have the equipment position rules.

[shred]

It might be interesting is to allow Single Stack Minor gear (and only that) to compete in Production, all other rules the same. Same 10-round limit, you're trading a skinny grip and better trigger for a wider magwell and nicer holster position. I doubt 8-round major would make much sense, but that could be done too I guess.

[Dr Mitch]

Is it a better trigger? Or is it an easy trigger? And is easy better than not easy? Is the holster position nicer? Or does it seem nicer?

Any more I feel that the differences are too minute to seriously consider, and that one should focus on being good at shooting. A nice trigger is a nice trigger. I don't feel like I can shoot my 1911 or 2011 any better than my Stock 2.

And last week I moved my Production holster up to a single-stack legal height so that I can freely play in different divisions with similar belt setups. It actually helped make my draw more consistent, this less-nice position, and it didn't slow me down at all. It was a bigtime net-benefit.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Dr Mitch

[motosapiens]

It might be interesting is to allow Single Stack Minor gear (and only that) to compete in Production, all other rules the same. Same 10-round limit, you're trading a skinny grip and better trigger for a wider magwell and nicer holster position.

i usually shoot ss minor now, so I just add the two divisions together in my head. I have found that I shoot pretty much exactly the same scores whether i'm shooting production with a cgw-ized cz or ss minor with a nice 1911.

However, as mr burgess opined above, even tho there would be no advantage to an SAO, many people would believe there was an advantage because shooters are sheep, just like they now believe that 'all the top guys' shoot da/sa in production, lol.

[MikeBurgess]

I was doing some 25yd zeroing on a my and my wife's SS and Revolver guns yesterday. I was not super happy with the groups I was getting from those 4 guns ( all around 5"-6" ish off hand) and as a quick test I grabbed my G17 and ran a quick 10 shot group and was somewhat surprised to find that while its trigger is long and mushy and GLOCK like I (emphasis on the I as in me personally) shot almost half the group size ( 3 1/2" ish) with it than either of the 1911's I am reasonably sure that the groups the other guns were shooting were because of me as I had tried a few different ammo combinations and they all shot about the same but apparently I just shoot that 17 better, it just feels right to me.

[BASE772]

However, as mr burgess opined above, even tho there would be no advantage to an SAO, many people would believe there was an advantage because shooters are sheep, just like they now believe that 'all the top guys' shoot da/sa in production, lol.

I agree. I'd shoot my Sig SAO over a 1911 though.

[pskys2]

Technically a light (many top gunsmiths take the SA trigger down to around 1 1/2 pounds) SA 1911 trigger can gain you .02 seconds on a balls to the wall double tap. In a COF with tighter shots or targets past true double tap range you won't see any such difference and it will come down to the individual. Some shoot better with a longer smooth pull. It is actually easier to get a surprise break with a longer smooth trigger pull than a short crisp light trigger pull. Now a super light trigger pull gives everyone a surprise break, thinking of it makes it happen type, but also requires experience and training to master.

The bigger issue at the time Production started was to create a starter division, one that you would have a level playing field for all and that you could be competitive in with an off the shelf pistol. Not one that would lend itself to an arms race. It also became a division for the martial artist who had started competing in IDPA.

Human nature what it is, ways were found to make off the shelf trigger systems better. Which is a good thing and one of the tenets of IPSC, being a test bed for innovation.

Now Production is not a starter division, but is still cheaper to get started in and be competitive than open or limited. Revolver division would be a similar division, but alas perceived to be harder to become competitive in, skill wise. Production also is more aligned with self defense weapons, just as the Single Stack division is.

Definitive answer is that Production and Single Stack are attempts to keep a division from becoming an arms race and give a specific type of firearm a place to play. Combining them may not hurt overall results, but would probably tend to limit participation as a whole.

[gavagai]

Late to the party, but Prod is not Limited, and wouldn't be made Limited or a custom build division by allowing SAOs IMO. There is still the box, magwell restrictions, the prod listing requirement, no major scoring, and less specifically the stage planning and reload requirements.

I *would* advocate for changing the rules. I don't see any Prod shooter being comparatively more disadvantaged shooting against an otherwise conforming Production SAO than they would shooting against a custom CZ shooter or polymer shooter with a custom trigger. If we want to be super protective we could impose a disadvantageous minimum trigger weight for SAOs.

I personally don't see how it serves the sport to exclude SAO Sigs, 9mm 1911s etc from Production. Many popular 9mm guns currently have no real home in USPSA. Why make people shoot minor in Limited or Single Stack when they could reasonably shoot Production?

Edited November 20, 2016 by gavagai

[rowdyb]

yes, there would be an advantage and anyone serious would instantly change to a sao gun over a striker fired gun especially.

[teros135]

...for which we have SS, Limited, etc.  There's a place for everybody ... except those who want a "special" advantage in a division they favor, apparently.  

[BASE772]

Thanks for the replys guys. Like hearing people's opinions. 

Like I stated early on. Not trying to change any rules. 

Just saying the trigger on my P320 was just as good or better than my SAO. 

So I see no advantage having the SAO. 

 

Thanks

[RJH]

I personally would love it is SS and production were lumped together using the same rules for each division as they have now with the exception of letting production guns also run 8 major/10 minor.  But that is just me

[teros135]

Everybody wants something more...