Unload and show clear

[Kraj]

How important is it to you to see an empty chamber when you are running the timer?

If I'm in a good position to see it and the shooter holds the slide back I will look, but if they don't I'm not that worried about it. "if clear hammer down" puts the responsibility on the shooter to make sure the gun is unloaded before they drop the hammer. If they mess it up its their dq.

I don't understand why some ros will make shooters lock the slide back again while they double check the chamber. Even if you notice there is magazine still in the gun would you stop the shooter? Would that be considered coaching? If you can guarantee you will every shooter from dqing that way I think it's better to issue the range commands, make sure everything stays safe, and leave the shooter to make their won mistakes.

[Batmo]

If you have ever had a round go off the SECOND time the hammer falls due to a high primer....then you will understand why I want to see an empty chamber.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Batmo

[ktm300]

As an RO I am thinking about safety. I want to see an empty gun. It is pretty rare I have to ask to see an empty gun as I watch the gun very closely but if I don't see it empty, I ask. Twice I have found a round in the chamber. That is less than 1 in a thousand, but still it can happen.

I saved the two shooters from a trip to DQ and possibly saved someone from getting hurt. Take some time and watch how people drop the hammer. Point the gun at the ground at a shallow angle and let one loose, it has a good chance of skipping out of the berm.

Just a hint, point the gun at the berm and pull the trigger.

[George Jones]

There are two separate issues involved here. One is shooter etiquette, the other is RO responsibility.

As it has been stated, the RO's primary concern is safety. In this instance, the RO must be sure that the gun is proven clear before declaring Range is Clear. Obviously, having the opportunity to actually see the chamber is what we hope for. Unfortunately, too many shooters don't seem to see that as an advantage to them which might prevent a DQ simply because if the RO sees a case in the chamber, the RO should simply repeat the U&SC command. If the shooter doesn't "get it", a STOP command may be required. Why? Because the RO, having seen a round in the chamber should not continue with the "If Clear...", resulting in a predictable unsafe act and DQ.

On the other hand, what if the shooter doesn't present the chamber for inspection and blasts through the unloading? If you are certain the shooter has satisfactorily completed all the proper steps (ending with pulling the trigger = Click!), I see no need to put him through the steps again and the rules do not specifically require this. The gun has proven clear. But it's the RO's choice here. If for any reason the RO is not certain (or he wants to educate a new shooter in the correct procedure) then feel free to go back to U&SC again.

As to shooter action, beyond the above, I am continually dismayed by seeing shooters pull the trigger one-handed with a tea cup grip, into at wall, or at their feet, or into a target for that matter. What we should teach new shooters (and do ourselves) is to hold the gun with both hands, point it into the berm, then pull the trigger. That way, is the gun goes BANG! no one gets hurt, nothing gets damaged and the bullet stays on the range where it belongs. It may not happen often, but it happens.

[GrumpyOne]

There are two separate issues involved here. One is shooter etiquette, the other is RO responsibility.

As it has been stated, the RO's primary concern is safety. In this instance, the RO must be sure that the gun is proven clear before declaring Range is Clear. Obviously, having the opportunity to actually see the chamber is what we hope for. Unfortunately, too many shooters don't seem to see that as an advantage to them which might prevent a DQ simply because if the RO sees a case in the chamber, the RO should simply repeat the U&SC command. If the shooter doesn't "get it", a STOP command may be required. Why? Because the RO, having seen a round in the chamber should not continue with the "If Clear...", resulting in a predictable unsafe act and DQ.

On the other hand, what if the shooter doesn't present the chamber for inspection and blasts through the unloading? If you are certain the shooter has satisfactorily completed all the proper steps (ending with pulling the trigger = Click!), I see no need to put him through the steps again and the rules do not specifically require this. The gun has proven clear. But it's the RO's choice here. If for any reason the RO is not certain (or he wants to educate a new shooter in the correct procedure) then feel free to go back to U&SC again.

As to shooter action, beyond the above, I am continually dismayed by seeing shooters pull the trigger one-handed with a tea cup grip, into at wall, or at their feet, or into a target for that matter. What we should teach new shooters (and do ourselves) is to hold the gun with both hands, point it into the berm, then pull the trigger. That way, is the gun goes BANG! no one gets hurt, nothing gets damaged and the bullet stays on the range where it belongs. It may not happen often, but it happens.

How exactly has the gun been proven "clear" if we don't look into the chamber? The chances are extremely slim, but it could happen, that the last round loaded into the chamber had a bad primer, and it didn't go off as the trigger was pulled. The RO would then not know there was a round in the chamber, nor would the shooter know....until the next stage at "Make Ready", or at a safety area if the shooter works the slide...both are DQ'able offenses, are they not? The onlt way to be 100% "certain" is to visually verify that there is no round in the chamber BEFORE the trigger is pulled at UL&SC.

[Pat Miles]

There are two separate issues involved here. One is shooter etiquette, the other is RO responsibility.

As it has been stated, the RO's primary concern is safety. In this instance, the RO must be sure that the gun is proven clear before declaring Range is Clear. Obviously, having the opportunity to actually see the chamber is what we hope for. Unfortunately, too many shooters don't seem to see that as an advantage to them which might prevent a DQ simply because if the RO sees a case in the chamber, the RO should simply repeat the U&SC command. If the shooter doesn't "get it", a STOP command may be required. Why? Because the RO, having seen a round in the chamber should not continue with the "If Clear...", resulting in a predictable unsafe act and DQ.

On the other hand, what if the shooter doesn't present the chamber for inspection and blasts through the unloading? If you are certain the shooter has satisfactorily completed all the proper steps (ending with pulling the trigger = Click!), I see no need to put him through the steps again and the rules do not specifically require this. The gun has proven clear. But it's the RO's choice here. If for any reason the RO is not certain (or he wants to educate a new shooter in the correct procedure) then feel free to go back to U&SC again.

As to shooter action, beyond the above, I am continually dismayed by seeing shooters pull the trigger one-handed with a tea cup grip, into at wall, or at their feet, or into a target for that matter. What we should teach new shooters (and do ourselves) is to hold the gun with both hands, point it into the berm, then pull the trigger. That way, is the gun goes BANG! no one gets hurt, nothing gets damaged and the bullet stays on the range where it belongs. It may not happen often, but it happens.

How exactly has the gun been proven "clear" if we don't look into the chamber? The chances are extremely slim, but it could happen, that the last round loaded into the chamber had a bad primer, and it didn't go off as the trigger was pulled. The RO would then not know there was a round in the chamber, nor would the shooter know....until the next stage at "Make Ready", or at a safety area if the shooter works the slide...both are DQ'able offenses, are they not? The onlt way to be 100% "certain" is to visually verify that there is no round in the chamber BEFORE the trigger is pulled at UL&SC.

+1!

The command is "If you are finished, unload and SHOW CLEAR. If I have a shooter that speeds through the command, I will ask him to show me that the gun is clear. End of story. I ask politely but if necessary...

[George Jones]

Yes, there is the slim possibility that the primer could be bad or even that it may be seated high. But if you are correctly positioned, you have the opportunity to see the mag released and the round ejected, so.....

[edited to add] I did say "all the proper steps" , which includes seeing the mag come out and the round ejected.

You decide how you want to handle it. Erring on the side of safety is never a bad thing, even when shooters don't appreciate it.

I'm more concerned about revolvers now that they do not have to pull the trigger. If I didn't get to see the cylinder open, I will use U&SC again (not that the old one-pull of the trigger proved all that much).

Edited July 1, 2016 by George Jones

[Gary Stevens]

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

[GrumpyOne]

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

Unless it is in the middle of a COF....

[tanks]

Being left handed there really is no way for the RO to see that I have unloaded the firearm. So, after I unload, I pull the slide back and show the empty chamber. Does not take any extra effort on my part.

[ChuckS]

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

Unless it is in the middle of a COF....

Like when you have to go back to your range bag for more mags...

[Youngeyes]

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

^^^This. It sometimes seems that some ROs say," If you are finished etc..." in one breath as if it were one command. I have felt rushed to drop the mag,cycle the gun and pull the trigger as fast as I can. I take the time to look for myself that the gun is unloaded before I drop the slide and hammer down. DQ or not... My gun, my responsibility. Just sayin'

[Flatland Shooter]

I not only check the chamber but also verify the magazine has been removed.

Recently I've RO'd some newer shooters at a local range that started up recently. Several times they have shown me an empty chamber but I noticed a loaded magazine was in place.

Some of the more experienced shooters (especially the bullet flippers) don't want to take the time to show me the chamber, but I will not give the "range is clear" until after I've seen it with my own eyes.

This is how I've done it for over 30 years and not once has a gun gone "bang" at the hammer down command.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Flatland Shooter

[davsco]

confirming chamber is indeed empty helps shooter avoid dq and also keeps range and competitors safer by avoiding ad/nd. pretty simple procedure, why not do it?

most of the flip and catch folks i shoot with understand that practice doesn't give the RO enough time to verify clear, so they usually pull the slide back after catching to let the RO verify clear.

[pskys2]

Exactly

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

Exactly. I've had several guys try to do the speed Show Clear thing.

I always ask them to show me their empty chamber, even if they dropped the hammer.

It is my responsibility to do everything possible to have a safe course. To do that the RO must see the chamber.

When someone tries that I always tell them there are 2 times to take their time. On the Load Command and on the Un Load command.

I also tell them it's just not worth an AD on unloading, so take their time and let another pair of eyes look at it.

So far I've never had anyone get P.O.'d over it, we just all get into bad habits at times.

[Kraj]

This was all came from me running a left handed shooter. She took out the mag, and I saw a round fly out when she racked the slide.

I went on with the commands and she asked if I saw the chamber to which I replied I didn't need to and it was on the shooter. She mumbled something about how Im supposed to or something like that as she holsters and we got to scoring.

I'm not going to say that not looking is more safe than looking but I don't buy that it's unsafe either. Not any more potential unsafe than running around with loaded guns.

If the shooter reloads with their finger in the trigger guard they are done, if they reload with their finger closer than I would like I don't yell finger as a warning. I feel like I'm there to say the range commands, stop the shooter if they do anything unsafe and if they don't it's all on the shooter.

If they can't unload their gun, that they are in control of, they shouldn't be shooting that day anyways

[remoandiris]

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

[Flatland Shooter]

And the key word in Rule 8.3.6 is "must".

Edited July 2, 2016 by Flatland Shooter

[Southpaw]

Loading and unloading is not a speed event.

Unless it is in the middle of a COF....

Like when you have to go back to your range bag for more mags...

[NickBlasta]

And the key word in Rule 8.3.6 is "must".

It just says you must present it for inspection, not that the RO must see it. If I present it and he's not there and then I hammer down and holster, whose fault is that??

[Pat Miles]

And the key word in Rule 8.3.6 is "must".

It just says you must present it for inspection, not that the RO must see it. If I present it and he's not there and then I hammer down and holster, whose fault is that??

If he's not looking, he's not doing his job!

[Nik Habicht]

And the key word in Rule 8.3.6 is "must".

It just says you must present it for inspection, not that the RO must see it. If I present it and he's not there and then I hammer down and holster, whose fault is that??

Well, definitely yours if the gun goes bang. But here's the thing -- I'm probably not giving "Range is Clear" until I've seen that Chamber -- I'm likely to repeat "If you are finished, unload and show clear." So I'll get to see your chamber, even if you consider it to be an inconvenient time......

I've been forced to dq a friend who rushed the unloading portion so much that he forgot to remove the mag -- no one got hurt, but he has a slower, more deliberate unloading routine as a result....

[JAFO]

I will usually ask to see the chamber again if they went flying through the process. I was on the last stage of a match on a 100+ degree day several summers ago, and we were all dead tired from the heat. When the shooter ULSC, I had seen a round fly out, but he went through the process pretty fast while the scorekeeper was asking a question, so I asked him to show me the chamber again. Turns out he had racked the slide then removed the mag. When I asked to see it again, another round flew out. He wasn't upset at all that I had asked.

Most lefty shooters I have run lock their slide back and turn the gun over so I can see the chamber, which is nice.

Edited July 5, 2016 by JAFO

[thermobollocks]

I don't say "if clear, hammer down, holster" until I see the chamber. If the shooter drops the hammer and holsters before I've issued the command, he's not following instructions

[Craig N]

There are two separate issues involved here. One is shooter etiquette, the other is RO responsibility.

As it has been stated, the RO's primary concern is safety. In this instance, the RO must be sure that the gun is proven clear before declaring Range is Clear. Obviously, having the opportunity to actually see the chamber is what we hope for. Unfortunately, too many shooters don't seem to see that as an advantage to them which might prevent a DQ simply because if the RO sees a case in the chamber, the RO should simply repeat the U&SC command. If the shooter doesn't "get it", a STOP command may be required. Why? Because the RO, having seen a round in the chamber should not continue with the "If Clear...", resulting in a predictable unsafe act and DQ.

On the other hand, what if the shooter doesn't present the chamber for inspection and blasts through the unloading? If you are certain the shooter has satisfactorily completed all the proper steps (ending with pulling the trigger = Click!), I see no need to put him through the steps again and the rules do not specifically require this. The gun has proven clear. But it's the RO's choice here. If for any reason the RO is not certain (or he wants to educate a new shooter in the correct procedure) then feel free to go back to U&SC again.

As to shooter action, beyond the above, I am continually dismayed by seeing shooters pull the trigger one-handed with a tea cup grip, into at wall, or at their feet, or into a target for that matter. What we should teach new shooters (and do ourselves) is to hold the gun with both hands, point it into the berm, then pull the trigger. That way, is the gun goes BANG! no one gets hurt, nothing gets damaged and the bullet stays on the range where it belongs. It may not happen often, but it happens.

How exactly has the gun been proven "clear" if we don't look into the chamber? The chances are extremely slim, but it could happen, that the last round loaded into the chamber had a bad primer, and it didn't go off as the trigger was pulled. The RO would then not know there was a round in the chamber, nor would the shooter know....until the next stage at "Make Ready", or at a safety area if the shooter works the slide...both are DQ'able offenses, are they not? The onlt way to be 100% "certain" is to visually verify that there is no round in the chamber BEFORE the trigger is pulled at UL&SC.

+1!

The command is "If you are finished, unload and SHOW CLEAR. If I have a shooter that speeds through the command, I will ask him to show me that the gun is clear. End of story. I ask politely but if necessary...

I have a little compact with a tight chamber. Sometimes live rounds are hard to rack outta the gun and I have the really jerk the slide to get it to unlock. Sometimes the slide goes forward before I get it locked open. I'll pull the slide back and lock it so the RO/SO can look. I've had SOs just go on to If Clear as I'm pulling the slide back to lock it. There is no reason to hurry and speed load or speed unload after you are done shooting.