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Quicker acceptable sight picture for 2nd shot


ES13Raven

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In the great debate of preferred 9mm bullet weight, I've seen many shooters say they prefer the 147 over 115 or 124 because of less recoil. They say the recoil impulse is more of a "push" and softer than the snappier 124gr loads.

I've also seen shooters say they like the 124gr because the gun cycles faster and prefer the lower cost. I've shot 147s for several years, and never felt they were "slow" in my CZ or Glock. I have pulled off splits as low as .11 so they cycle the gun fast enough.

During a recent class I took with Ben Stoeger, he had us doing a drill where we were to shoot a decently fast split at a 15 yard target, really concentrate on seeing the 2nd shot and try to get that shot off as soon as possible when the sight picture was acceptable.

This was the first time I have felt like I was waiting on the gun. I was ready to pull the trigger again, but the sights had not settled yet.

I had two thoughts: Maybe my recoil spring is worn and I need a new one to close the slide quicker (I use an 11#). Or maybe the slightly higher recoil of the 124gr load would snap the gun back on target faster, as some shooters have reported.

Thoughts?

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What bullet weight does Ben use?

I'm sure if you asked him, he would tell you that better time-savings are gained during transitions, reloads, and the draw.

The 124 vs 147 decision will probably never loose you a match.

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"Waiting on the gun" is the reason many people prefer the 124's ....

I haven't reached that stage of development yet - perhaps if I took a course with Ben,

or tried that exercise.

Just might mean that you're getting better - as a result of Ben's course?

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I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception.

Bullet weight will have little impact on how fast you can split. Optimizing your grip and recoil spring will allow your sights to settle faster.

I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit.

In the end, you want to "tune" the gun to your load and style of shooting.

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I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception.

+1. When i work on my grip more, the sights settle faster, regardless of bullet weight.

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I tried different recoil springs couldn't really tell a difference plus or minus two lbs. Then again I am probably not that good yet, I do agree with jrn1975 on try tuning your gun your style.

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I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit.

As long as bullet feeding is reliable, are there any disadvantages to having a really light recoil spring? For example, the slide has less resistance sliding to the rear and "slams" into the rear of the frame causing more muzzle flip?

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I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit.

As long as bullet feeding is reliable, are there any disadvantages to having a really light recoil spring? For example, the slide has less resistance sliding to the rear and "slams" into the rear of the frame causing more muzzle flip?

i've done a little experimentation on my 45 1911 trying to figure out exactly this question. a 12lb recoil spring caused the perceived recoil (impact against my hand, not necessarily muzzle flip) to increase compared to a 14lb recoil spring. going higher than 14lb seemed to make the muzzle dip more when the slide came forward. It seems to me that muzzle movement when the slide comes forward is more of a problem for shooting quickly and accurately than muzzle movement or recoil as the slide reaches its rearward limit of travel.

However I also found that after 1 or 2 strings, I adjusted my grip to compensate for different behavior of different springs, so now I mostly just worry about how far the rounds are ejecting. If they are too close to me, I go lighter on the recoil spring. I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip.

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I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip.

Awesome that you tested that out. For closer targets, we should be able to compensate for different recoil springs by using a good, strong grip. But for targets 15 yards and farther, I think taking the time to tune the recoil spring to snap back to the original POA can save some time. The sooner I can get that second shot off with an A or close C, the better.

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I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip.

Awesome that you tested that out. For closer targets, we should be able to compensate for different recoil springs by using a good, strong grip. But for targets 15 yards and farther, I think taking the time to tune the recoil spring to snap back to the original POA can save some time. The sooner I can get that second shot off with an A or close C, the better.

it is not going to snap back to the original POA with any recoil spring unless you force it to do so with your grip and the force you put into the gun to manage recoil. You may find it easier to manage the recoil with a particular spring combination, but I found that after a few shots I adjusted my input to the gun to compensate. The first few followup shots tended to go low after switching to a heavier spring, and they tended to go high after switching to a lighter one, but after the first few I just subconsciously adjusted my input to the gun.

I encourage you to experiment on 15-25 yard targets however. Your results may well be entirely different from mine (or someone else's) and the only way you will know for sure is to test it yourself and report back to the group.

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I think it's the way the sights settle (come back faster) with the 124 Gr.

I like the feel of the 147 but it seems like my sights are moving in Molasses. With the 124 Gr. it has a bit more snap

and my sights come back perfect for my style. It's all personal preference for sure.

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On his podcast Ben and the others say they've all shot 124-147 and while they prefer the recoil impulse of 147s, they shoot 124s (mostly) because they're cheaper and they don't seem to be so harsh on the gun...

I run 135s, happy medium. But that's in glocks/XD's...

I'll prolly switch to 124s when I get an all metal stock2 like those guys.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by bigbob21
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I could feel the difference between an 11# and 13# recoil spring in my gun shooting 147s. I shot the 11 for a long time but am now happy with the 13. All through a lot of guess, check, refine, adapt. Oh accushadows and sp01s.

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I'm so confused.

When you go back to the original post, my assumption was that the shooter had improved his ability to track the sights through recoil or had improved his speed of awareness or whatever you want to call it. This is probably tied to the assumption that there is always a settling process for every shooter at every skill level.

When you consider 'timing the gun' , this appears to be taking a well aimed first shot and then relying on your grip / stance / mechanics to consistently bring the second shot back on target in a fixed amount of time.

One process being aim-shoot-aim-shoot and the other process being aim-shoot-wait-shoot .

Apples versus oranges, or aim I just looking at things wrong ?

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I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception.

Bullet weight will have little impact on how fast you can split. Optimizing your grip and recoil spring will allow your sights to settle faster.

I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit.

In the end, you want to "tune" the gun to your load and style of shooting.

So I did some testing today with recoil springs and slo mo video. The video doesn't lie.

With 10# and 11# my gun and load return slightly higher than original POA. I have something good in the background to reference, and you can clearly see it return a little high and I adjust the gun lower for the next shot.

The 12# spring seems to be perfect. It returns to the original POA and ejects brass about 5 feet away.

This was with 147gr bullets at 130pf, I will try 124s next.

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I like 147 but when it comes down to it, shooting is shooting, tweaking will only do a fraction of what normal talent/practice can do. Top guys will shoot better no matter what bullet weight you use, less focus on bullet and equipment more on practice. I am guilty, heavily guilty of this myself.

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