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P.C.C. harder than it looks?


blaster113

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Because some critics thought that PCC would be without challenge and inherently faster than Open in current matches. The reality of maneuvering a 7 pound gun with a long barrel around barricades and ports is that it isn't all easy mode.

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I am not a PCC shooter, but it will be really fascinating to watch gun development if PCC really takes off.

My guess is that if this becomes a seriously competitive division, then M4 based platforms will be replaced by something that:

1) Reloads through the pistol grip (easier reloads and shorter carbine). Perhaps even with a magwell.

2) Something that is gas powered and not blow back (less felt recoil).

3) Perhaps (and I could be very wrong here) something that does not have a stock in line with the bore, but rather an M1 carbine type stock that would allow you to put the optic very close to the bore line to reduce bore offset. However, this may increase felt recoil to the point that this is a non-starter.

4) Comps that actually work for a 9mm (not sure if this is really feasible).

5) Something that comes with 35+ round magazines as standard equipment.

6) Something that reliably locks back on the on an empty mag (nice to have).

7) Something with very ergonomic controls for the bolt release, magazine release, and safety.

8) Something that has lots of barrel length options for the NFA guys.

I know of no PCC that would have all of these attributes.

Some of these things would help PCC close the gap with pistols in some areas.

Don't forget something that is under $1

Or maybe with magic beans or a golden goose... or never misses

That was a low and said in jest, but I am confused how all that, ties into this thread. How "PCC is harder than it looks".

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You are forgetting that last sentence about "closing the gap." Technical improvement will help close the gap with pistols.

At my club, we have about 7 regular PCC shooters (huge club). About 5 of those guys have issues with their guns. Probably 3 of them have serious issues.

Part of what is hard about PCC is that the guns themselves are in their infancy in terms of development. It is making PCC look harder than it really is right now, although shooting a carbine on pistol stages presents its own special set of challenges.

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I am not a PCC shooter, but it will be really fascinating to watch gun development if PCC really takes off.

My guess is that if this becomes a seriously competitive division, then M4 based platforms will be replaced by something that:

1) Reloads through the pistol grip (easier reloads and shorter carbine). Perhaps even with a magwell.

2) Something that is gas powered and not blow back (less felt recoil).

3) Perhaps (and I could be very wrong here) something that does not have a stock in line with the bore, but rather an M1 carbine type stock that would allow you to put the optic very close to the bore line to reduce bore offset. However, this may increase felt recoil to the point that this is a non-starter.

4) Comps that actually work for a 9mm (not sure if this is really feasible).

5) Something that comes with 35+ round magazines as standard equipment.

6) Something that reliably locks back on the on an empty mag (nice to have).

7) Something with very ergonomic controls for the bolt release, magazine release, and safety.

8) Something that has lots of barrel length options for the NFA guys.

I know of no PCC that would have all of these attributes.

Some of these things would help PCC close the gap with pistols in some areas.

Don't forget something that is under $1

Or maybe with magic beans or a golden goose... or never misses

That was a low and said in jest, but I am confused how all that, ties into this thread. How "PCC is harder than it looks".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are forgetting that last sentence about "closing the gap." Technical improvement will help close the gap with pistols.

At my club, we have about 7 regular PCC shooters (huge club). About 5 of those guys have issues with their guns. Probably 3 of them have serious issues.

Part of what is hard about PCC is that the guns themselves are in their infancy in terms of development. It is making PCC look harder than it really is right now, although shooting a carbine on pistol stages presents its own special set of challenges.

PCC are not in their infancy? The term PCC is new. SMG's have been around since shortly after WWI. MP 40, Thompson, Grease Gun, UZI, MP5, UMP, and many others have been evolving for almost a century. Experience with these systems has been relegated to those who work with them and those who could afford them.

And honestly there were not a lot of civilian venues to use them. That leads to ignorance. I don't disagree that guys are having issues with guns, but I put my money that it ain't the guns but the individual using it. Whether they went out and bought the cheapest one they could find, or built one not knowing what they were doing. These serious issues you eluded to are not specific to PCC's especially in USPSA, every match their are always issues with guns. And no type of gun is immune. Someone is cussing at their gun somewhere.

The issue is that shooters who don't have a lot of experience shooting carbines in confined position while moving fast are getting to drink from the fire hose. learning it ain't as easy as they think, and thus why it is great for the sport. If it was easy everyone could do it.

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I don't disagree that guys are having issues with guns, but I put my money that it ain't the guns but the individual using it. Whether they went out and bought the cheapest one they could find, or built one not knowing what they were doing. These serious issues you eluded to are not specific to PCC's especially in USPSA, every match their are always issues with guns. And no type of gun is immune. Someone is cussing at their gun somewhere.

Yep.

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Just a reminder, every Winchester 1892 ever made was a PCC. The Winchester 1873 became a PCC when Colt started chambering Peacemakers in 44-40.

That's covered in Cowboy Action

Isn't as easy as it looks

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Edited by Rangerdug
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I am not a PCC shooter, but it will be really fascinating to watch gun development if PCC really takes off.

My guess is that if this becomes a seriously competitive division, then M4 based platforms will be replaced by something that:

1) Reloads through the pistol grip (easier reloads and shorter carbine). Perhaps even with a magwell.

2) Something that is gas powered and not blow back (less felt recoil).

3) Perhaps (and I could be very wrong here) something that does not have a stock in line with the bore, but rather an M1 carbine type stock that would allow you to put the optic very close to the bore line to reduce bore offset. However, this may increase felt recoil to the point that this is a non-starter.

4) Comps that actually work for a 9mm (not sure if this is really feasible).

5) Something that comes with 35+ round magazines as standard equipment.

6) Something that reliably locks back on the on an empty mag (nice to have).

7) Something with very ergonomic controls for the bolt release, magazine release, and safety.

8) Something that has lots of barrel length options for the NFA guys.

I know of no PCC that would have all of these attributes.

Some of these things would help PCC close the gap with pistols in some areas.

Don't forget something that is under $1

Or maybe with magic beans or a golden goose... or never misses

That was a low and said in jest, but I am confused how all that, ties into this thread. How "PCC is harder than it looks".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are forgetting that last sentence about "closing the gap." Technical improvement will help close the gap with pistols.

At my club, we have about 7 regular PCC shooters (huge club). About 5 of those guys have issues with their guns. Probably 3 of them have serious issues.

Part of what is hard about PCC is that the guns themselves are in their infancy in terms of development. It is making PCC look harder than it really is right now, although shooting a carbine on pistol stages presents its own special set of challenges.

PCC are not in their infancy? The term PCC is new. SMG's have been around since shortly after WWI. MP 40, Thompson, Grease Gun, UZI, MP5, UMP, and many others have been evolving for almost a century. Experience with these systems has been relegated to those who work with them and those who could afford them.

And honestly there were not a lot of civilian venues to use them. That leads to ignorance. I don't disagree that guys are having issues with guns, but I put my money that it ain't the guns but the individual using it. Whether they went out and bought the cheapest one they could find, or built one not knowing what they were doing. These serious issues you eluded to are not specific to PCC's especially in USPSA, every match their are always issues with guns. And no type of gun is immune. Someone is cussing at their gun somewhere.

The issue is that shooters who don't have a lot of experience shooting carbines in confined position while moving fast are getting to drink from the fire hose. learning it ain't as easy as they think, and thus why it is great for the sport. If it was easy everyone could do it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

I have an hk94 (semi auto 16" mp5) that is quite pleasant to shoot and if kept even halfway clean is bet your life on reliable...

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Just a reminder, every Winchester 1892 ever made was a PCC. The Winchester 1873 became a PCC when Colt started chambering Peacemakers in 44-40.

That's covered in Cowboy Action

Isn't as easy as it looks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've shot SASS for a year with 24" barreled rifles. It's not that hard. Even with the ban on shooting while moving, we did have some movement during stages. If I could get speed loaders and didn't lose brass on USPSA stages, I'd shoot this with my cowboy rifles. I might have to pick up a 73 in .357 just to try it.

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Are there any PCCs that reload anywhere near as quickly as run of the mill Production pistols?

I haven't seen PCC HHFs yet, but it seems as though a vanilla Glock 17 or the like would be faster than 9MM AR or MP5 or maybe even an MPX on classifiers like Can You Count, Melody Line, or even El Prez. PCCs just don't seem to be in the same league, with respect to magazine changes.

It also seems as though people may favor shorter magazines for PCCs in classifiers like these, in an attempt to improve reload speed. In other words, why mess with a 32 round mag for a really fast classifier when handling a 15 or 20 rounder may be faster? Actually, the same may hold true in a field course. If you start with a 32 rounder, why have your next reload be another 32? You may just need a couple insurance rounds on a field course and 32s may reload more slowly.

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Way slower to reload so far. In the one match I have shot with a PCC, I shot way better with my Production gun the first time around the 5 stages. I load with a 31rd ETS with a +4 TTI basepad and have G17 mags on my belt for reloads.

I'm going to be working on reloading with the gun on my shoulder. Bringing the gun down to do a reload is atleast 2-3 seconds and with a classifier like Can You Count a slow reload will be disasterous for anything better than a "B" percentage.

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I shot PCC with a high 9 HF on can you count, yes the reloads were slow. I used a 33rd with a 23 reload from the pocket. Going to a 41 with some 23s on the belt will certainly help.

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I ran 99-12 just as fast with my PCC as our Master Open shooters, but beat em on HF because of all the alphas. I think my reloads with the GMR-13 are almost as fast as with my limited/open gun. Getting used to it not clicking when seated is the hardest part. I reload to Magpul 17 round Glock mags though.

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Are there any PCCs that reload anywhere near as quickly as run of the mill Production pistols?

I haven't seen PCC HHFs yet, but it seems as though a vanilla Glock 17 or the like would be faster than 9MM AR or MP5 or maybe even an MPX on classifiers like Can You Count, Melody Line, or even El Prez. PCCs just don't seem to be in the same league, with respect to magazine changes.

It also seems as though people may favor shorter magazines for PCCs in classifiers like these, in an attempt to improve reload speed. In other words, why mess with a 32 round mag for a really fast classifier when handling a 15 or 20 rounder may be faster? Actually, the same may hold true in a field course. If you start with a 32 rounder, why have your next reload be another 32? You may just need a couple insurance rounds on a field course and 32s may reload more slowly.

I have my belt setup the same as for Open, I carry 1 big stick to load at start and 2 short sticks for reloads or whatever. The big stick I carry is pretty variable, I have a 41 rounder, a 36, a 33 and a 31, whatever the course requires. My short sticks are just 23s.

I think once someone makes some 3-gun style AR magwells you will see faster reloads, not to mention people getting some time on the platforms to learn the new reload. I have seen some talk of a MechTech style 2011 carbine where you load into the pistol grip- I imagine that'd be very similar to loading a handgun.

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I ran 99-12 just as fast with my PCC as our Master Open shooters, but beat em on HF because of all the alphas. I think my reloads with the GMR-13 are almost as fast as with my limited/open gun. Getting used to it not clicking when seated is the hardest part. I reload to Magpul 17 round Glock mags though.

I would love to see some video if you have any.

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Are there any PCCs that reload anywhere near as quickly as run of the mill Production pistols?

I haven't seen PCC HHFs yet, but it seems as though a vanilla Glock 17 or the like would be faster than 9MM AR or MP5 or maybe even an MPX on classifiers like Can You Count, Melody Line, or even El Prez. PCCs just don't seem to be in the same league, with respect to magazine changes.

It also seems as though people may favor shorter magazines for PCCs in classifiers like these, in an attempt to improve reload speed. In other words, why mess with a 32 round mag for a really fast classifier when handling a 15 or 20 rounder may be faster? Actually, the same may hold true in a field course. If you start with a 32 rounder, why have your next reload be another 32? You may just need a couple insurance rounds on a field course and 32s may reload more slowly.

I have my belt setup the same as for Open, I carry 1 big stick to load at start and 2 short sticks for reloads or whatever. The big stick I carry is pretty variable, I have a 41 rounder, a 36, a 33 and a 31, whatever the course requires. My short sticks are just 23s.

I think once someone makes some 3-gun style AR magwells you will see faster reloads, not to mention people getting some time on the platforms to learn the new reload. I have seen some talk of a MechTech style 2011 carbine where you load into the pistol grip- I imagine that'd be very similar to loading a handgun.

NickBlasta is talking about me. I'll make sure to make a full report of it's viability compared to my open and limited times on classifiers. Maybe a video to show it. I look forward to making it work. Only downside is finding mags that hold more than 30 rounds.

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After my first match that had a couple times where moving to my left shoulder would have been to my advantage, I went home and tried to hold the rifle left handed. I can't get the ergonomics right to be able to see anything. I am so right eye dominant that I can't close my right eye and not have my left eye want to squint closed. This is definately going to take some work.

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Third match and I'm getting the hang of it. Match started at 4pm and the sun being in your face slowed me down. Whipping a long gun around barricades, especially if forced to switch to weak hand is the biggest challenge. Also need to practice empty starts ? Definitely a fun division to shoot.

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