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Environmental failure? Popper calib. failure? at 2016 OR state champio


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the zebra swaying is bad, should have been supported a little better. REF? not sure.

the popper. you said it was forward falling right? you took three shots at both those poppers, is it possible you hit the big one twice? first shot started the popper moving, second shot stopped it from falling? my buddy did exactly that this year at FL Open. Shot the forward faller right in the calibration zone, it wasn't moving fast enough so he popped it again, the second shot prevented it from going down. Calibration put it down no problem.

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If the calibration ammo (usually a 120-125pf) knocked down the popper the Mike stands. I would have shot it again from the last position when I noticed it up. I have not done very well with calibration challenges so I always re-engage if possible.

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As an RO on the stage I would have noticed and fixed the zebra hopefully prior to anyone shooting. If it started later in the day I would fix it as soon as it started hopefully. Hard to say without being there though.

The steel? If you lose calibration, you lose calibration.

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  • 3 months later...

We had this happen at a local IPSC Level III match this year... the popper thing I mean. Remember it was IPSC and not USPSA, so the rules may be different, but this is what happened:

 

1) Shooter hit the popper in the calibration zone and it didn't fall.

2) RM shoots the popper with the match gun & ammo and it falls.

3) Shooter asks what factor the ammo was, RM said it was 125.000 but the shooter requested for it to be chronoed.

4) RM chronoes the ammo = 132.000 power factor, so the shooter got a reshoot because in Appendix C1 of the IPSC rulebook, it states that poppers should be calibrated using ammo with a power factor between 120.000 and 125.000.

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  • 3 weeks later...
6 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

All this would be unnecessary if steel got painted after each shooter and full diameter hits is the calibration zone were sufficient for score. 

There would still be lost time due to uncertainty about the hits, and because some of the poppers would likely be activators.

Somewhere Brian Enos wrote a bit about the fact that there will always be the potential for issues with poppers, and I think he reccomended how they could be built differently to help with this (been a while since I read it). 

My experience is, if shooting minor then full size maximum weight poppers are always going to have a high potential for problems. Good hits at different locations in the scoring zone are going to drop the poppers at different speeds and ,rarely but sometimes, not at all. Calibration varies throughout the match due to changes in the ground & changes in the pivot point friction, sometimes calibration is different on each reset due to variation in sideways tilt. Problems can be minimized by selection of well constructed and maintained poppers and diligence of the stage r.o., but I don't think you will ever get them to react at the same speed to all scoring zone hits. 

Small poppers seem to work a lot better, plates are great but the USPSA rules for plates are not great and really ought to be fixed to eliminate dumb reshoots.

Even with the negatives, the Missouri State match had 99 steel targets last weekend, and it was the most fun match that I have ever been to, so steel can work. 

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14 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

All this would be unnecessary if steel got painted after each shooter and full diameter hits is the calibration zone were sufficient for score. 

or if we banned the use of poppers and made major pf mandatory for every division.

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7 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Problems can be minimized by selection of well constructed and maintained poppers and diligence of the stage r.o., but I don't think you will ever get them to react at the same speed to all scoring zone hits. 

why do you want them to react at the same speed? they should fall faster for higher hits and higher pf.

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They usually react differently both side to side and top to bottom.

I guess it is philosophical beyond that point, should any hit in the scoring zone give the shooter the same reward? Should major power factor provide a time and consistency advantage with steel activators as well as the scoring advantage with paper?  

I don't know, or really care, beyond situations where a scoring zone hit with minor has a whole lot of time variance with activators or occasionally does not drop the popper. 

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It is legal to shoot USPSA with minor power factor ammunition. Reactive targets should operate with all legal ammunition when hit in the calibration zone. It has been established that targets do not always work this way.

Poppers recognize power because a major power factor hit below the scoring zone may drop the popper. However a popper is an unreliable tool to measure power factor, we use a chronograph to do that.

Calibration is left over from a time before cheap chronographs, we don't use ballistic pendulums any more either. If the target is hit in the calibration zone and doesn't go down, it should be a reshoot. We already do this with plates, it's faster than waiting for the RM to drive his golf cart over. The complication is how to handle edge hits. If you say "full diameter" hits only, how do you define this? Would this penalize larger calibers that hit close to the edge?

Another problem with dropping the calibration system would be the way we handle poppers at level 1 matches. We would need to paint steel after every shooter. With the current system we can be lazy about that.

I think we can all agree that the current system doesn't always work as intended. We throw out entire stages for competitive equity problems, why do we keep a system that doesn't work 100%?

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On 10/3/2016 at 0:54 AM, 3gunnuts said:

All this would be unnecessary if steel got painted after each shooter and full diameter hits is the calibration zone were sufficient for score. 

So you'd be good with "one alpha on steel, two mikes and an FTE on the swinger, due to the shooter's inability to knock down the popper" as the call?  Careful what you wish for.....

 

 

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On 10/4/2016 at 10:58 AM, Nik Habicht said:

So you'd be good with "one alpha on steel, two mikes and an FTE on the swinger, due to the shooter's inability to knock down the popper" as the call?  Careful what you wish for.....

 

 

Nice. I didn't think of that when I read his post. :cheers:

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On 10/4/2016 at 9:58 AM, Nik Habicht said:

So you'd be good with "one alpha on steel, two mikes and an FTE on the swinger, due to the shooter's inability to knock down the popper" as the call?  Careful what you wish for.....

 

 

No but a full diameter hit on the activator that does not fall would be grounds for a re=shoot.

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Just now, 3gunnuts said:

No but a full diameter hit on the activator that does not fall would be grounds for a re=shoot.

Last match I watched a guy get a center zone hit with 38 super and the popper stayed up. First shot on the steel so the hit was clear.   Called for a calibration and a 9mm knocked it over.  How is that fair?

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21 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

No but a full diameter hit on the activator that does not fall would be grounds for a re=shoot.

Can't have it both ways -- if we're scoring it a hit when the popper stays up, then, you the shooter have not activated the mechanism for the mover, hence no reshoot....

Otherwise we have no problem with must fall to score.....

Afterall -- the only rounds we know make power factor are the rounds we fire over the chrono.  The others we give good faith credit for, with occasional verification by steel....

(And for the record, I detest use of steel to activate other targets....)

 

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There is no perfect solution to this. The current system, while imperfect, covers the most bases in my opinion. Hit to score would cause so many problems.

Moreover, in my opinion, steel is fun to shoot. I'm willing to put up with some potential and real competitive problems to have fun - especially when the only sure fire way to fix them is to eliminate the fun.

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22 minutes ago, ctay said:


Moreover, in my opinion, steel is fun to shoot. I'm willing to put up with some potential and real competitive problems to have fun - especially when the only sure fire way to fix them is to eliminate the fun.

+1

I think that absolute competitive equity is overweighed quite a bit. It is important to professional / semi-pro shooters at high level matches, but perhaps 99% of USPSA shooting is done by people who are shooting because they enjoy it. 

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If a plate is hit and doesn't fall, it's a reshoot under rule 4.3.1.6. No one has a problem with this. Why does everyone get so bent when we talk about doing the same for poppers?

Poppers don't "validate" power factor, they are not used to spot check a competitors ammunition. Poppers do "recognize" power factor, major ammo will knock down steel with impacts below the calibration zone.

Wind can swirl in a bay making a popper harder to knock down for just a moment. If that wind knocks the popper down, it's a range equipment failure resulting in a reshoot. If it makes it harder to knock down, we call for calibration. If the wind has changed and the popper falls, the shooter is penalized for something they had no control over. They -might- have enough ammo to shoot it again, but did you have to burn another quarter second to drive the popper down?

I just don't see the problem with issuing a reshoot. A reshoot may very well be faster than waiting for calibration. If a competitors ammunition is suspect, it can be chronographed again under rule 5.8.1.5.

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If a plate is hit and doesn't fall, it's a reshoot under rule 4.3.1.6. No one has a problem with this.

Well I actually have a problem with that rule. I think it is dumb that a plate can't be challenged, and a reshoot is mandatory if it is nicked and doesn't fall. I think we should use the same rules for them as we do with a popper. The only issue with plates is if they can turn on the stand without falling or if you can hit the stand and knock them down both are easy to solve and neither precludes treating them like a popper.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

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Paraphrasing, there aren't any problems with plates. They are fairly inexpensive, fun to shoot, facilitate flexible and creative course design, and tolerate wind and rain better than either paper or poppers. 

There are problems with the USPSA plate rules. Lucky head shots to paper happen every match and nobody cares, lucky shots which shake a plate stand hard enough to drop a plate force a reshoot. If there is clear evidence that a paper target was hit then all is well, if there is clear evidence that a plate was hit then it is ignored unless the plate fell down.

Plates good - rules dumb. 

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