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Is it fair to require USPSA shooters to go prone?


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I'd like to get other competitors' thoughts on whether a USPSA stage should require a shooter to go prone?

I'm all for testing a shooter's abilities! Low ports, high ports, small ports, hard leans, table starts, forward/backward movement, etc... that's all fine. But there are lots of folks who are able to do all those things, but have physical limitations that make it extremely difficult to go prone (and next to impossible to get up from prone while on the clock). Should they be indirectly penalized for not being able to get prone or being suuuuper slow at getting down there?

Thoughts?

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We had a match just this past weekend that required kneeling and prone. I mention that because I recently had knee surgery and had difficulty in doing that. Yes, as you stated it took time. It would have been better for me if I had knee pads. My fault and no one elses fault. I plan to start packing knee pads which would have sped things up a hair as I'd have had to favor my knee a bit less.

I have no problem with prone shooting. Let me rephrase that. I'm no longer as spry or as fast as I was, today as a Senior shooter, than I was even 20 years ago. I'm one of those people you refer to as taking a bit more time to get down and then back up, knee or no knee issues. I have no problem with the requirement. Why? Well, because everything I do today, as compared to 20 years ago is done slower. I don't run as fast, and my eyes don't focus as fast. If I didn't want to do any of those things I'd be shooting Bullseye competition and not ask to have Action Pistol turned into a Bullseye match. After all, it IS called Action Pistol and not Sedentary Pistol. Prone is just another form of action.

Flex', you wouldn't know where that's found in the rules, would you? I know I've seen it but try to find it when it's needed.

Edited by BrianKr
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It's a sport and, like most sports, has a degree of physical conditioning required. As I get older, it gets harder, and I will never win a stage that has a prone position in it. I can't run as fast, either.

But I would not want the sport to compromise to meet my limitations. I would rather be challenged to break through my limitations.

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USPSA is a sport - there's a physical element to it, unlike a static contest of shooting skill like Bullseye or GSSF. Personally I like "track meet" stages since I'm 36 and still move pretty much as fast as I did at 25. That's changing slowly year by year, and things like a chronic wrist injury are starting to catch up with me... but I LOVE how physical practical shooting is. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I do not like going prone - I simply don't shoot very well there, and that's why I love it when stage designers make me do it. I do like seeing stages where one of the competitive ways to attack the stage allows prone shooting to be your final position... so those with old stiff joints don't have to get back up on the clock.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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I do not like going prone - I simply don't shoot very well there, and that's why I love it when stage designers make me do it. I do like seeing stages where one of the competitive ways to attack the stage allows prone shooting to be your final position... so those with old stiff joints don't have to get back up on the clock.

Same thoughts here. A good stage should make going prone as an option not a requirement.

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I personally think there isn't enough prone or kneeling. The only thing that bothers me is getting up on the clock. It's hard on these old army knees but it also causes loose gun handling skills from what I have witnessed. The good thing is, it seems 99% of the time these positions are at the end of a stage.

Edited by Sarge
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Prone and kneeling are fine. Just make them the last position in the stage! Getting up is no longer on the clock. Gravity works equally well for the young and spry as it does for the old and stiff.

And yes, there are items in the rules to address those that cannot assume a position. I'd have to look it up, but it is in there.

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Is it fair to require USPSA shooters to go prone?

Yup. I have seen stages where there is an option to avoid prone but it will cost time, as it should.As for going prone, everybody gets the same 9.8 m/(s^2). It is nice, however, if it is the last position on the stage ;)

Later,

Chuck (Super Senior)

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Explain your problem to the match director before shooting. There is a provision for him to give you a penalty for the offence but it's probably only going to be one procedure. That won't kill you.

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I may be missing a rule here.

I am under the impression that your firearm is to stay under your control at all times.

I can get up from prone but I definitely want to have both hands for that.. push up.

Is leaving the gun sitting on the ground considered safe?

miranda

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I may be missing a rule here.

I am under the impression that your firearm is to stay under your control at all times.

I can get up from prone but I definitely want to have both hands for that.. push up.

Is leaving the gun sitting on the ground considered safe?

miranda

yes, as long as it is either cleared, or on safe. The rulebook specifically addresses this.

10.5.3 <snip>. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and
10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and
10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and
10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or
10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine removed and the slide locked open, or
10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.
Edited by motosapiens
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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

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I read the title of this thread and audibly face palmed.

For people that literally can't get into a prone position, supine is perfectly usable, effective, and easy to get into. I actually like to shoot supine more than prone in general.

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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called.... :devil:

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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called.... :devil:

thanks for your usefull humor.

well,excepting the penalty i could take for not being able to perform the prone position without risking some back troubles, , i asked if it was possible for me to put some kind of buffer on the mat so my back isn't bent downward which is what cause me some problems...still waiting for an answer since i can't find any rules against
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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called.... :devil:

thanks for your usefull humor.

well,excepting the penalty i could take for not being able to perform the prone position without risking some back troubles, , i asked if it was possible for me to put some kind of buffer on the mat so my back isn't bent downward which is what cause me some problems...still waiting for an answer since i can't find any rules against

What is preventing you from going supine? It sounds like you are saying you are extension sensitive in your low back. Supine has the low back supported by the ground.

Edited by Jake Di Vita
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just to clarify, outside of a classifier, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a stage that 'requires' you to go prone. Many people may find that prone is the best solution to the problem, but I have seen lots of shooters find other ways of shooting through ports lower than 24" or so. I saw Rob Leatham just bend all the way over while still standing on two feet. I saw LOTS of shooters (including the stage winner at a stage in 2013 A1) kneel and bend over to put their head on/near the ground, basically shooting upside down.

I would like for off-road motorcycle races to not include things that I suck at, but instead of trying to change the sport, I just suck it up.

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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called.... :devil:

thanks for your usefull humor.

well,excepting the penalty i could take for not being able to perform the prone position without risking some back troubles, , i asked if it was possible for me to put some kind of buffer on the mat so my back isn't bent downward which is what cause me some problems...still waiting for an answer since i can't find any rules against

What is preventing you from going supine? It sounds like you are saying you are extension sensitive in your low back. Supine has the low back supported by the ground.

problem for me is shooting prone , you must lift your head to line up the sights on the targets correctly which applies more pressure down on the lower back. i can run and kneel as fast as when i was 25 while prone is a real bummer for me.....as i said, throwing some kind of pillow on the mat would only raise the part of my back a little higher than the rest of my old body, enough to not risk a lock up of my back....and i don't see any advantages doin so

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I'm not very good at shooting accurately and fast. I know alot of other people have problems with this too. Is it fair for uspsa to require people to shoot accurately and fast in order to do well?

lol.

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for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called.... :devil:

Cowboy Action Shooting?

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