Safe Table

[ss+P]

So I shot my first local match of the year this past Saturday. They had a standard sized USPSA box at the safe table. The MD made mention that at all major matches you had to be inside the box at the safe table or you could be DQ'd. Not the exact verbiage, but that was the premise behind the message. He also mentioned that someone at Battle in the Bluegrass someone got DQ'd after the match for not being in the box.

My question after hearing this is: Is this an actual rule per the USPSA rule book or is this club specific.

Not sure if I agree with the rule, Just wondering if it is a legit rule.

[tyler2you]

It's in the rule book:

2.4 At Level II or higher matches, Safety Areas must include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

If you handle your gun outside the boundaries of the safety area and not under the direction of a range officer, you would be DQ'd under rule 10.5.1 for Unsafe Gun Handling.

[ktm300]

2.4 Safety Areas

The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. At level II or higher matches, Safety Areas must include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

I have never seen a standard shooting box at a safe table but.... If it is designated as the boundary then you need to stay in it. Yes, if you don't stay in it you could get a DQ. Normally there is a fairly large table with a fairly large area defined.

[teros135]

I understand that someone at BITB was DQd after finishing the match when he took his gun out of the holster and bagged it in other than a safety area. It didn't really have to do with the boundaries of a safety area, just did it wherever he was. From that description, probably 10.5.1. Could have been a brain fart or a habit from his local matches but gosh, it's a LII, have to pay attention.

[Gary Stevens]

I understand that someone at BITB was DQd after finishing the match when he took his gun out of the holster and bagged it in other than a safety area. It didn't really have to do with the boundaries of a safety area, just did it wherever he was. From that description, probably 10.5.1. Could have been a brain fart or a habit from his local matches but gosh, it's a LII, have to pay attention.

Not exactly. The safety area was occupied and the shooter stood beside the safety area and bagged his gun.

One can always ask the CRO on a stage to assist in bagging a gun if the safety area is full or located at a distant location.

[teros135]

Thanks, Gary.

I'm guessing a larger safety area would be a good idea, especially if the only safety area available for two stages has a 3x3 shooters box as its boundary. Still, you have to use what's there...

Edited April 18, 2016 by teros135

[Sarge]

I understand that someone at BITB was DQd after finishing the match when he took his gun out of the holster and bagged it in other than a safety area. It didn't really have to do with the boundaries of a safety area, just did it wherever he was. From that description, probably 10.5.1. Could have been a brain fart or a habit from his local matches but gosh, it's a LII, have to pay attention.

Not exactly. The safety area was occupied and the shooter stood beside the safety area and bagged his gun.

One can always ask the CRO on a stage to assist in bagging a gun if the safety area is full or located at a distant location.

That's a shame that happened.

[GrumpyOne]

I understand that someone at BITB was DQd after finishing the match when he took his gun out of the holster and bagged it in other than a safety area. It didn't really have to do with the boundaries of a safety area, just did it wherever he was. From that description, probably 10.5.1. Could have been a brain fart or a habit from his local matches but gosh, it's a LII, have to pay attention.

Not exactly. The safety area was occupied and the shooter stood beside the safety area and bagged his gun.

One can always ask the CRO on a stage to assist in bagging a gun if the safety area is full or located at a distant location.

That's a shame that happened.

How so? I distinctly remember Gary covering that in the shooters briefing on Saturday morning. Were not all shooters supposed to attend the shooters meeting?

[teros135]

How so? I distinctly remember Gary covering that in the shooters briefing on Saturday morning. Were not all shooters supposed to attend the shooters meeting?

Yes, he did, and yes, we were. It's a good reason to attend the shooters meeting!

[Sarge]

I understand that someone at BITB was DQd after finishing the match when he took his gun out of the holster and bagged it in other than a safety area. It didn't really have to do with the boundaries of a safety area, just did it wherever he was. From that description, probably 10.5.1. Could have been a brain fart or a habit from his local matches but gosh, it's a LII, have to pay attention.

Not exactly. The safety area was occupied and the shooter stood beside the safety area and bagged his gun.

One can always ask the CRO on a stage to assist in bagging a gun if the safety area is full or located at a distant location.

That's a shame that happened.

How so? I distinctly remember Gary covering that in the shooters briefing on Saturday morning. Were not all shooters supposed to attend the shooters meeting?

Good lord! It's a shame to get DQED AFTER completing all the stages. It's a good rule, the RM is fantastic, it was a good call, food was good, blah blah.....

How do we know the shooter was not at shooters meeting? Seems like a brain fart to me.

[StealthyBlagga]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

[CodyAxon]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

That would depend on the ROs interpretation of whether or not you were inside of the boundaries of the Safe Table. The moral of the story is, if there's a box at the safe table, step into it, then do whatever you need to do with the gun.

[Sarge]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

[motosapiens]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

[Sarge]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

Goobers. Bwahaha

[BeckA11416]

Just to bring clarification to this i was the culprit at the battle in the bluegrass. I have been involved in uspsa/ipsc for about 30 years and this was the 1st time i have every been dq'd. I was dq'd for not being within the box at the safety table, there was nothing unsafe about what i did just a rules violation (stood right next to 2 other competitors that were occupying the box). Apparently this rule has been in effect for about a year and from what i have encountered over the last year it has not been handled consistently, this is the 1st time i have actually noticed a clearly defined 3'×3' box in front of the safe table. I applaud local clubs for using this to educate shooters so this doesn't happen again, if there was a "cookie cutter" box at every range there would be no confusion. Fyi i was not at the morning shooters meeting

Edited April 18, 2016 by BeckA11416

[robb315]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

Just took the RO class taught by George Jones and specifically asked about the one foot out because of the other thread on here.

One foot out is considered out as long as the wording isn't any more specific. So straddling the fault line is considered out. He went on to say a more specific start position like toes/heels touching marks or 'fully outside' would be the better thing to state in the WSB.

Edited April 18, 2016 by robb315

[motosapiens]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

Just took the RO class taught by George Jones and specifically asked about the one foot out because of the other thread on here.

One foot out is considered out as long as the wording isn't any more specific. So straddling the fault line is considered out. He went on to say a more specific start position like toes/heels touching marks or 'fully outside' would be the better thing to state in the WSB.

lol, so if i show up to a match with a shirt, but no pants, I will still be 'dressed'.

if i'm the RO, I'm not starting anyone with 1 foot in and 1 foot out.

[motosapiens]

this is the 1st time i have actually noticed a clearly defined 3'×3' box in front of the safe table.

that sounds pretty lame and lazy to me to have such a small box. we have fault lines that go all the way around the table. probably more like 7' by 5'. You can fit 3 people in there.

sounds to me like if you only have a box in front of the table (and not enclosing the table), then the gun may be getting handled outside of that box.

Edited April 18, 2016 by motosapiens

[robb315]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

Just took the RO class taught by George Jones and specifically asked about the one foot out because of the other thread on here.

One foot out is considered out as long as the wording isn't any more specific. So straddling the fault line is considered out. He went on to say a more specific start position like toes/heels touching marks or 'fully outside' would be the better thing to state in the WSB.

lol, so if i show up to a match with a shirt, but no pants, I will still be 'dressed'.

if i'm the RO, I'm not starting anyone with 1 foot in and 1 foot out.

Lol. I'm just saying what he told me. I made a note to specifically ask him about this because of the other thread on here. Basically, his conclusion was to make the WSB more specific so this type of thing doesn't happen or change it before the match starts. As you stated it though, he said one foot out is considered out. Edited April 18, 2016 by robb315

[Sarge]

this is the 1st time i have actually noticed a clearly defined 3'×3' box in front of the safe table.

that sounds pretty lame and lazy to me to have such a small box. we have fault lines that go all the way around the table. probably more like 7' by 5'. You can fit 3 people in there.

sounds to me like if you only have a box in front of the table (and not enclosing the table), then the gun may be getting handled outside of that box.

If it's the safe table I'm thinking about there it's only a 2x2 table maybe. 3x3 box is definitely big enough for the one I'm thinking of

[robb315]

this is the 1st time i have actually noticed a clearly defined 3'×3' box in front of the safe table.

that sounds pretty lame and lazy to me to have such a small box. we have fault lines that go all the way around the table. probably more like 7' by 5'. You can fit 3 people in there.

sounds to me like if you only have a box in front of the table (and not enclosing the table), then the gun may be getting handled outside of that box.

If it's the safe table I'm thinking about there it's only a 2x2 table maybe. 3x3 box is definitely big enough for the one I'm thinking of

It was the table that was in between stages 9 & 10

[eern]

If I'm the RO I'm not starting anyone with 1 foot in and 1 foot out.

Here is my thing. Agree with the rule or don't agree with the rule your job, as an RO, is to enforce the rules not interpret them how you see fit. If they are out they are out. If they want shooters "wholly outside the box" then they need to write it that way. Otherwise let them game it.

[Gary Stevens]

This year we had to use the safety tables that were available, hence the small box. Maybe the host club can build some bigger tables and box areas for next year. I can only suggest, not mandate to the club. What they had worked for all but one.

[bret]

Is it like a foot fault - one foot in, one foot outside = match DQ?

Very good question. I'll bet it's the same principle. If one foot is out, you're out.

The rulebook doesn't say you are out, it says you're faulting and get a procedural. Perhaps a subtle semantic difference, but it is important to the goobers that try to start with 1 foot in the shooting area when the wsb says 'starting anywhere outside the shooting area'.

I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to be all the way inside the safe area, just to avoid unnecessary stress. I also can't think of any reason you wouldn't want the safe area to be big enough that multiple people could use it at once.

Just took the RO class taught by George Jones and specifically asked about the one foot out because of the other thread on here.

One foot out is considered out as long as the wording isn't any more specific. So straddling the fault line is considered out. He went on to say a more specific start position like toes/heels touching marks or 'fully outside' would be the better thing to state in the WSB.

lol, so if i show up to a match with a shirt, but no pants, I will still be 'dressed'.

if i'm the RO, I'm not starting anyone with 1 foot in and 1 foot out.

Then the RM can get an R.O. that will follow the rules.