Should Snitches Get Stitches?

[StealthyBlagga]

We all know that 3-gun equipment division rules can be complicated, and often vary from match to match. I occasionally hear (legitimate) concerns expressed that some competitor or other is "getting away" with using illegal equipment. In the vast majority of cases I have found this to be a minor and unintentional infraction, which we never the less punish appropriately.

Unfortunately, catching such infractions can be hit or miss. The staff at major 3-gun matches have a lot to on their plate just running their stages safely, equitably and on schedule. I don't ever recall undergoing the kind of formal equipment checks that are common at USPSA and IPSC handgun matches. When I am running a stage I do the best I can to eyeball the equipment the shooter brings to the line, but I don't always feel confident I can give it as much attention as I do at a handgun-only match. Competitors, on the other hand, have much more time to watch their peers throughout the event, and may be in a better position to spot infractions.

My question, then, is whether it is appropriate for competitors to make other competitors and/or match staff aware of infractions when they see them. How would YOU feel if one of your squadmates told you that your holster was illegal, for example... would you thank them or tell them to MYOB? What would you think about a match where there was a way for you to anonymously report infractions you became aware of?

At the heart of the question is whether we all have an obligation to help create an equitable competitive environment, or is it a case of "if you didn't get caught, it never happened"?

Oh, and this thread is NOT about "we need a standardized set of rules"... take that nonsense elsewhere

[Miranda]

... have you ever heard of dudley-do-right?...

[ChuckS]

If you like seeing other competitors have an unfair advantage, keep your mouth shut. If not, you may want to point it out.

[Pat Miles]

If you like seeing other competitors have an unfair advantage, keep your mouth shut. If not, you may want to point it out.

+1

[Chuck Anderson]

I've mentioned issues to several shooters over the years. Never had one that took offense. Most just didn't know. Last year it was a guy at the Ironman that didn't realize he couldn't swap scopes each stage. He wasn't in the running to win.

[Doug H.]

Most people just are not aware that they are not in compliance and are usually not upset when enlightened. I have called back ROs in the past when they have blown a call on a target. I've alerted them both for and against the shooter. I've had the same done to me and figure if I shot it I bought it. Whining because you didn't get away with something is juvenile. Everyone makes mistakes and we need to assure that the scores at the end are as close to correct as possible. Any other way is unfair to the other shooters in the division.

Doug

[Stlhead]

I will point out an equipment issue to a shooter if he or she is on my squad or if I know them personally. I would not point it out to a match official. If the shooter chooses to ignore the information then that is up to them. I go to matches to compete, to shoot, and to have a good time, not to be turning in my fellow shooters to "the MAN". Our sport is a recreational one, not a professional one. My livelihood and my emotional wellbeing is not directly tied to my order of finish. If someone cheats and finishes ahead of me then thats the way it goes, it is not worth the effort to be a tattle tail.

[BrianKr]

Looking at it from a different perspective, if my gear wasn't within spec's I'd want to be told about it so that I could maybe make it right then and there. If someone "ratted" on me that would be OK 'cause I'd still find out about it anyway to correct it one way or another. But I would prefer that they come to me so that I could make corrections first; before a federal case was made out of it. The sooner the better too.

Now if I told someone to eff off, or had that attitude, even more reason to tell someone and make a more formal complaint.

I try to stay in compliance and I hope others do too. Most of the time if I think something is borderline I'll ask someone first. I don't want an unfair advantage. I want to abide by the rules and shoot MY best and not use the crutch of an unfair advantage over others.

So to answer the OPs question from the perspective in which it was asked, yes, it's up to other competitors to police the ranks. If someone in violation takes umbrage they can just go shoot elsewhere IMO. In USPSA there is a sportsmanship rule. I think that might apply here as well as equipment that doesn't meet spec'.

It's about shooting; not about cheating and seeing what someone can get away with.

Edited April 5, 2016 by BrianKr

[ChuckS]

Here is a hypothetical case: The match is a major match. The division affected is a small division that allows only iron sights. Shooter A notices that Shooter B has a optic on their rifle. Other 3 Gun organizations allow an optic but this division does not. The rules are publicly available on line on a well-known website. Shooter B is very experienced in 3 Gun and in the running to win. The squad discusses the problem and shooter X, another very experienced competitor and match director elsewhere goes to talk it over with shooter B. The squad decided that is all that they will do and they will not talk to the officials about it. Well, shooter B continues with the illegal equipment and wins the division. Shooter B accepts the award but then steps aside at the prize table and does not take the top prize but takes the second. Had Shooter B been moved to the correct division, Shooter A would of been in second place and got the prize that Shooter B took. The third place was at less than 1/2 the value of second. For our hypothetical case, lets say that the second prize was worth ~ $600 and 3rd ~$200.

So, in this hypothetical case, is it right that Shooter A be shafted $300-400 because of some "code" among shooters?

[DocMedic]

I'm about to RO my 6th year of Rocky Mountain 3gun, I do find that the CRO should be able to recognize if a piece of gear is or is not legal for that shooters division, now I'm not saying I've never had something get past me, but I try my due diligence to make sure shooters are in the correct division, and if I see it before the shooter starts the stage I give them a curtsey warning that they might be going into Open if they start the stage with illegal equipment. I had this happen a couple years ago with a top name Tac Ops shooter, he loaded his rifle with a surefire 60rnd. I kindly reminded him that if he starts the stage using it, I will have to bump him to open, and offer him to be bump down the shooting list if he needed a sec to recollect his thought process.

I don't think anyone truly does it on purpose, and if you just give them a friendly reminder they'll correct the situation as best as they can.

Edited April 5, 2016 by DocMedic

[eern]

I am of the opinion that if it is a small infraction of little to no advantage then just inform them and move on. On the other side if I am at a major (where everybody should know the rules) and there is a rule violation then I would tell someone. Although I am there for fun and I am not going to be winning anything I want a even format to compare myself on for self-evaluation. 3 gun does not have a whole lot of rules so no excuse not to follow them.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Twice, I've noticed a shooter walking around prior to the match with a holstered

gun that was cocked.

Both times I mentioned it to the shooter, and he resolved it amicably ...

I wouldn't mention it to the RO.

But, if it was an advantage to him, I'd mention it to the RO after I mentioned it

to the shooter (if shooter did not correct the situation).

[RangerTrace]

Personally, I would want to know if I was doing something illegal, and would probably (at least) point it out to the shooter.....if he didn't correct it, then maybe on to the match staff.

[ChuckS]

I don't think anyone truly does it on purpose, and if you just give them a friendly reminder they'll correct the situation as best as they can.

Not always, hypothetically speaking...

[MarkCO]

Tough question. I went to an RO to ask him to ask a member of a following squad to stop sweeping us with his rifle. Against the rules, violation of the 4 laws. The RO did nothing, neither did the MD.

When I am working a match, it is part of my job to ensure compliance with the rules, competitive integrity, etc. But I can not watch every person the whole time. At the IPSC rules SG match, last year, the rule was you had to have your gear checked and tamper proof stickers applied. A few did not, but it was relatively easy. No sticker on gun, no shoot stage.

When I am not working, but just shooting a match, if I see something with a squadmate, I will tell them, but it is not my "job" to enforce the rules, nor point out a missed no-shoot or check gear. We don't let participants call foul or give out penalties in other sports. A safety infraction is different IMHO and should be called out to an official regardless.

I think that there are solutions that do not involve competitors snitching on their fellow competitors. There is also the "degree" of the infraction to consider. Using a 1X optic in a true irons division is probably to that level. Using a SA trigger pistol in Production is probably that level. Extra capacity is probably that level.

[MarkCO]

There are some interesting math questions buried in here as well when it comes to rules compliance.

If you say a shotgun barrel must be no longer than 21", that implies 21.49" is allowed. If a pistol barrel must not be longer that 4.453", then 4.4534" is allowed. From a math and legal perspective, significant figures, rounding and truncating are defined.

So for "1x" optics, are you going to check magnification with an optical comparator and allow anything up to 1.49X? There are some that with the right glasses and diopter adjustment can get pretty darn close to 1.3X that are labeled as 1x optics.

Some matches say only 2 3/4" shells allowed, so if I open the crimp on a 3" prarie storm, trim, put in an overshot card and roll crimp it, they are only 2.55" long and 2.75" fired. Those would then be, under the rules, legal.

[SubOrbital]

Intentionally cheating should be frowned upon and reported to match officials. How you ascertain the cheating is intentional...that's up to you.

[Chills1994]

There are some interesting math questions buried in here as well when it comes to rules compliance.

If you say a shotgun barrel must be no longer than 21", that implies 21.49" is allowed. If a pistol barrel must not be longer that 4.453", then 4.4534" is allowed. From a math and legal perspective, significant figures, rounding and truncating are defined.

So for "1x" optics, are you going to check magnification with an optical comparator and allow anything up to 1.49X? There are some that with the right glasses and diopter adjustment can get pretty darn close to 1.3X that are labeled as 1x optics.

Some matches say only 2 3/4" shells allowed, so if I open the crimp on a 3" prarie storm, trim, put in an overshot card and roll crimp it, they are only 2.55" long and 2.75" fired. Those would then be, under the rules, legal.

The part in bold kinda blows my mind.

What if you say the barrel has to be 21.00 inches or less?

I don't quite get or understand the how or why behind saying "no longer than 21 inches", but then it is supposedly universally accepted that 21.49 inches is A-okay.

[RiggerJJ]

/\

140mm is actually 141.25mm...

[logiztix]

While lawyers are fun to have around, I would think that since we're talking about firearms we would be within reason to take the same stance the ATF does on the rounding of barrel lengths. I'm pretty sure that calling your 15.51" barrel a 16" isn't going to work out well for you.

As for shot shells? Show me the box. How does the manufacturer label it? If they are loading their own I would think it fair to check with a magnet and carve a shell open to see that it met the rules of the range or event in regard to shot weight and size at least.

This reminds me of the guys that bring their AR-15 pistol w/ SIG brace to a 3-Gun match in small bays and want to call them rifles. There is enough regulation in the firearms industry that we should be able to use some of it to squash the hopes and dreams of gamers without too much trouble. I've never had to give an FTDR in IDPA, but I'll start giving them in 3-Gun if it turns into it.

[Chills1994]

/\

140mm is actually 141.25mm...

That is actually spelled out in the USPSA rulebook, in an appendix, IIRC.

Plus there is an available and approved magazine gauge that anyone can buy and all the mag gauges are the same.

[MarkCO]

There are some interesting math questions buried in here as well when it comes to rules compliance.

If you say a shotgun barrel must be no longer than 21", that implies 21.49" is allowed. If a pistol barrel must not be longer that 4.453", then 4.4534" is allowed. From a math and legal perspective, significant figures, rounding and truncating are defined.

So for "1x" optics, are you going to check magnification with an optical comparator and allow anything up to 1.49X? There are some that with the right glasses and diopter adjustment can get pretty darn close to 1.3X that are labeled as 1x optics.

Some matches say only 2 3/4" shells allowed, so if I open the crimp on a 3" prarie storm, trim, put in an overshot card and roll crimp it, they are only 2.55" long and 2.75" fired. Those would then be, under the rules, legal.

The part in bold kinda blows my mind.

What if you say the barrel has to be 21.00 inches or less?

I don't quite get or understand the how or why behind saying "no longer than 21 inches", but then it is supposedly universally accepted that 21.49 inches is A-okay.

If you say 21.0 vinculum, that makes it so it can not be over 21" by any amount. The reason that the USPSA rulebooks have blown up is that common sense is not as common as it used to be and the twisting of words has become common. When we let the lawyers rule the banks, the insurance companies and the politics, it was bound to go south. It is a mixing of meanings that usually causes the problems and with whiners and gamers it is a problem. While this is a little drift from the OP, it is a part of the problem with the rulesets and some personalities that get mixed in to the action shooting sports.

20 years ago, everyone knew waht 21" meant. But today, with Clintonian English vs. common usage vs. actual definitions, we can get into a mess with some rule verbiage.

[Garmil]

Have a question on the subject based on a recent match.

Stage description said start with shotgun loaded and 5 rounds total.

Some shotguns there didn't hold 5 majority did. Obviously the guy who can only hold 3 can start with 3.

Would you interpret that wording as exactly 5 or would "less than" be acceptable as it is in every other capacity situation?

For example a mag fed shotgun starting that stage with 1 round in the chamber only and no mag.

[Chills1994]

There are some interesting math questions buried in here as well when it comes to rules compliance.

If you say a shotgun barrel must be no longer than 21", that implies 21.49" is allowed. If a pistol barrel must not be longer that 4.453", then 4.4534" is allowed. From a math and legal perspective, significant figures, rounding and truncating are defined.

So for "1x" optics, are you going to check magnification with an optical comparator and allow anything up to 1.49X? There are some that with the right glasses and diopter adjustment can get pretty darn close to 1.3X that are labeled as 1x optics.

Some matches say only 2 3/4" shells allowed, so if I open the crimp on a 3" prarie storm, trim, put in an overshot card and roll crimp it, they are only 2.55" long and 2.75" fired. Those would then be, under the rules, legal.

The part in bold kinda blows my mind.

What if you say the barrel has to be 21.00 inches or less?

I don't quite get or understand the how or why behind saying "no longer than 21 inches", but then it is supposedly universally accepted that 21.49 inches is A-okay.

If you say 21.0 vinculum, that makes it so it can not be over 21" by any amount. The reason that the USPSA rulebooks have blown up is that common sense is not as common as it used to be and the twisting of words has become common. When we let the lawyers rule the banks, the insurance companies and the politics, it was bound to go south. It is a mixing of meanings that usually causes the problems and with whiners and gamers it is a problem. While this is a little drift from the OP, it is a part of the problem with the rulesets and some personalities that get mixed in to the action shooting sports.

20 years ago, everyone knew waht 21" meant. But today, with Clintonian English vs. common usage vs. actual definitions, we can get into a mess with some rule verbiage.

I learned a new word today. Thanks.

It obviously wasn't in any of the GRE study guides about 12 years ago.

[outerlimits]

Saw folks bitching about a person that had the wherewithall to use a rear bag on a rifle stage. Run whatcha brung!